NEED HELP with this WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB 1913-1920 but what year ?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by megalimey

NEED HELP WASHINGTON SENATORS TICKET STUB
Is this from the 1900s signature of the president is not Clark C. Griffith
so this predates it before 1920
ticket has

"AMERICAN LEAGUE BASE BALL CLUB
WASHINGTON, D.C

and a team President signature I cannot quite make out ??
the back has a name of HOLMES BAKERY that was in business from 1800'S TO MID 1920'S SEE PICTURE
just wondering if any one can identify era or year of this Washington Senators ticket , it Has large # 2 so that should mean home Game 2 with hand written Boston 8 Was 2 ,
I know who the team presidents for the Washington Senators were
1901-1903 Frederick Postal
1904-1904 Thomas J. Loftus
1904-1904 Harry B. Lambert
1905-1912 Thomas C. Noyes
1920-1955 Clark C. Griffith
1956-1960 Calvin R. Griffith
the signature does not seem to be any of these ??
hopefully one of you guys can give some insight

Hi David,
I hope you are well.
FYI, The team president is Benjamin Minor, so this ticket can be absolutely be identified as being from the years 1913-1919 and was played at National Park.
Although RUKen is certainly correct that in 1913 the Nats lost to Boston on 4/22 with a score of 8-3, there are 2 other date possibilities from the 1913-1919 era:

6/21/15 Game 1 (Babe Ruth gets a win in this game) Nats lose 8-3
6/4/19 Nats lose 8-3

The other outlying clue is the fact that you have the sponsor on the back of the ticket.
There were no sponsors on the back of all of the Nats tickets that I have from Walter Johnson wins in the 1920's.
Perhaps someone that recognizes the sponsor might be able to further narrow down the search. I cannot, unfortunately...

I hope this helps.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Hi David,
I hope you are well.
FYI, The team president is Benjamin Minor, so this ticket can be absolutely be identified as being from the years 1913-1919 and was played at National Park.
Although RUKen is certainly correct that in 1913 the Nats lost to Boston on 4/22 with a score of 8-3, there are 2 other date possibilities from the 1913-1919 era:

6/21/15 Game 1 (Babe Ruth gets a win in this game) Nats lose 8-3
6/4/19 Nats lose 8-3

The other outlying clue is the fact that you have the sponsor on the back of the ticket.
There were no sponsors on the back of all of the Nats tickets that I have from Walter Johnson wins in the 1920's.
Perhaps someone that recognizes the sponsor might be able to further narrow down the search. I cannot, unfortunately...

I hope this helps.

I am now certain the score added was added incorrectly as Home Game #2
was against the yankees which was rained out I added the 1913 Schedule
1913 was a miserable weather period in Washington with 5 out of the six first home games rained out , if you see the results there a void of games played for the first week Game 1 was on a thursday and yet their next game played
was also on a thursday which is a week between games , proof some games were rained out , Retro only show game played so counting down is a common misconception to identify game numbers

[Scott Garner]

David,
I mean no disrespect, but especially with rainouts, it's been my experience that game numbers don't actually tell the story.
Since this game 2 ticket is a rain check, it could be used for any future game in the season if it was, in fact, rained out. The day that the ticket was used, the Senators played Boston and likely lost 8-3 as noted by the patron. Nothing that I see on the ticket nails down the year as 1913 BTW. For this reason, I did not use the game number 2 as an absolute guide in my assessment and I agree in that this assumes that the game was completed as a game of record. It could be from any year between 1913-1919 according to our good friend Dan Busby's book on Washington Senators tickets.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

David,
I mean no disrespect, but especially with rainouts, it's been my experience that game numbers don't actually tell the story.
Since this game 2 ticket is a rain check, it could be used for any future game in the season if it was, in fact, rained out. The day that the ticket was used, the Senators played Boston and likely lost 8-3 as noted by the patron. Nothing that I see on the ticket nails down the year as 1913 BTW. For this reason, I did not use the game number 2 as an absolute guide in my assessment and I agree in that this assumes that the game was completed as a game of record. It could be from any year between 1913-1919 according to our good friend Dan Busby's book on Washington Senators tickets.

thats not really how Rainouts work
the ticket stub would have to be exchanged at the ticket office for any future
game , and not just presented at the turnstile , as how would the ticket collector know which game was rained also once torn you could not use that
stub to gain reentry into the park , if so it could be handed back through the fence a hundred times to all the neighborhood kids ,
I think the writing was added at later date based on looking at retro games played ,

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by megalimey

thats not really how Rainouts work
the ticket stub would have to be exchanged at the ticket office for any future
game , and not just presented at the turnstile , as how would the ticket collector know which game was rained also once torn you could not use that
stub to gain reentry into the park , if so it could be handed back through the fence a hundred times to all the neighborhood kids ,
I think the writing was added at later date based on looking at retro games played ,

Although that's the way that rainouts are dealt with today,
I would like you to consider the fact that may not have been the way that they were handled prior to WWII.
In my own personal collection I have several early vintage undated tickets that have old vintage fountain pen inscriptions that indicate that a game was played on a different date than the game number indicated on the front of the ticket.
I truly believe that some teams operated on such slim financial margins in the early part of the 20th century that a second ticket would not be issued in order to save money. I know that the Brooklyn Dodgers did this, and I suspect others did as well FWIW.

This is the challenging issue with undated vintage tickets. I really don't personally believe that there were any absolutes IMHO. Just my 2 cents.

[megalimey]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

Although that's the way that rainouts are dealt with today,
I would like you to consider the fact that may not have been the way that they were handled prior to WWII.
In my own personal collection I have several early vintage undated tickets that have old vintage fountain pen inscriptions that indicate that a game was played on a different date than the game number indicated on the front of the ticket.
I truly believe that some teams operated on such slim financial margins in the early part of the 20th century that a second ticket would not be issued in order to save money. I know that the Brooklyn Dodgers did this, and I suspect others did as well FWIW.

This is the challenging issue with undated vintage tickets. I really don't personally believe that there were any absolutes IMHO. Just my 2 cents.

unfortunately hand written dates have been fabricated for over 30-40 years
especially when people realized some of the prices they were getting
you ever noticed the games are all significant ??
I still find it hard to accept some one just went to the turnstile with a torn rain check stub , and were allowed admission , imagine the chaos in say Home game 67 where they had been over prior 12 rain-outs and hundred of people showed with all different game numbers on their torn tickets stubs , not even an IBM computer would have been able to sort out that , let alone a underpaid ticket collector how would he know , he would have to get a print out of all the games and doing this with all the people in line , just looking at the logistical nightmare that would cause , Most vintage tickets state "ticket must be exchanged for a future game subject to availability
and all AL and NL teams abide by the same rules due to the Revenue sharing back in the day , and knowing how many paid admission would determine pay out to visiting team. and total paid attendance .
I look it from the logistical aspect and not the emotional right or wrong

[Scott Garner]

Hi David,
Last reply on this & then I'm out.
The rain out scenario that I am referring to is a game that wasn't played at all.
This would create an unused ticket, not a ticket that was torn.

As far as every undated ticket with writing on it being to a historic game, I would have to say that I actually have not found that to be the case at all. Most examples that I have seen in my 45 years of collecting vintage baseball tickets have actually been to meaningless games...