Larry Doyle and the HOF

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I've always thought he was a HOFer. He was the best second basemen in his league for pretty much his entire career. When you're the best player at your position for your generation, I don't see why that wouldn't merit a HOF induction.

No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.

[T206Collector]

Larry Doyle keeps me active because he signed so many pre-war cards. I'd vote for him for this reason alone!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Surprised nobody mentioned his awesome nickname "Laughing" Larry Doyle. Apparently he had so much fun and was so good-natured that he got that nickname. Again I'm not saying he belongs, but a guy like him was often put in by his peers on an Old-Timer ballot because he was so popular.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

No, you could argue he was the best at his position from 1909-1915, maybe. From 1916 on Rogers Hornsby was the best. In the other league Eddie Collins and Nap Lajoie were the best and all 3 are light years ahead of Doyle. Even Johnny Evers has a higher WAR and WAR7 and many don't think he belongs in the HOF. In 3 Hof ballots he received 4, 2 and 1 vote. Hall of Good not Hall of Fame.

I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I have no explanation for Evers' WAR but he was not a better player than Doyle. Doyle's OPS is 765, Evers is 690. Pretty big drop. Batting average for Doyle is much higher at 290 than Evers at 270. Doyle has more hits and better power numbers overall too in less seasons. Doyle slugs 70 points higher too.

I absolutely think Hornsby was infinitely better than Doyle, but I don't see how you can discount Doyle's entire career when he and Hornsby overlap for only 4 or so seasons.

It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

It is called defense. Evers was the best defensive 2nd baseman of the dead ball era. Doyle was bad, had a negative dWAR. I guess the only thing you care about is offense. I think defense is very important, especially for a middle infielder. Evers was better, in my opinion.

dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.

[OldOriole]

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.

[packs]

Originally Posted by OldOriole

Gold glove awards are extremely subjective. Rafael Palmeiro won one in 1999 when he only played 28 games at first base and DH'ed the rest. Much like the MVP and All-Star voting, these results are often based on reputation and popularity rather than objective data.

Of course, but that's why I specifically chose Mattingly to demonstrate my point re: the stat. Mattingly is no Palmeiro. He was a first baseman of the highest quality and he has a negative dWAR. In fact I just checked and Mattingly's career fielding percentage is 11th all time. Casey Kotchman has the highest fielding percentage among all first basemen according to BR. His career percentage is 998. He has a dWAR of -0.6.

[OldOriole]

I agree with you that dWar is far from perfect. However, I believe it is a much more accurate reflection of overall defense than fielding percentage. After all, other factors, such as range, are quite important. You can have a great fielding percentage but if you have the range of a fire hydrant it really weakens the fielding percentage stats. dWar is still being tweaked (and needs to be). I'm not sure it'll ever be perfect but I believe it's more encompassing than just fielding percentage. That being said, I'll once again state I think "Laughing" Larry was a heck of a player.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

dWAR isn't really a useful stat. It's not that I don't care about defense, it's that I don't care about dWAR. Mattingly's dWAR is -6.8 for his career. He won 9 Gold Gloves.

Do you understand that is because of position adjustment? If we were comparing a 1b to a 2b, I would agree with you. We are comparing two players in the same era at the same position. It is a very good measure in this example. Evers was the best defensive 2b of his era. Doyle was a bad defensive 2b.

[packs]

Originally Posted by rats60

Do you understand that is because of position adjustment? If we were comparing a 1b to a 2b, I would agree with you. We are comparing two players in the same era at the same position. It is a very good measure in this example. Evers was the best defensive 2b of his era. Doyle was a bad defensive 2b.

You brought up the stat, not me. My point stands. A good defensive player like Mattingly can achieve a negative dWAR. I would love for you to support what you're saying about Evers in any way other than condescension. How do you know Evers was so much better than Doyle? They played almost the same amount of games at the position and Evers' fielding percentage is only a half-point higher than Doyle's. I can believe he had better hands, but not by the distance you're putting between them without you explaining yourself.

[nat]

Doyle was at -22 rField for his career, Evers was at +127. That's a pretty large difference, based on their defense alone Evers would be expected to win about 15 more games for his teams, over the course of his career, than Doyle.

Having good hands is (except for those who are extremely bad) relatively unimportant for defense. Being able to get to balls is much more important.

rField for these guys is based on their Total Zone Rating. Basic info about Total Zone can be found here.

Converting Total Zone Rating into runs is probably done through a linear weight system. Details on linear weights can be found here.