Were Group 1 Subjects Printed With EPDG Before PD 350 ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Thromdog

Awesome research as always.....

So based on your results, when you say that you are leaning towards EPDG's printed early 350/late 150, is that based on the Owens alone? I ask because in the samples you have referenced, the Owens is the only flaw that is shared on an EPDG example.

Just wanting to clarify.

Thanks

Hi Jeff,

With the print flaws it's kind of based on just the Owen. Of the flaws I
posted Davis, Tenney and McGraw are not confirmed EPDG's and Konetchy
and Pastorius are confirmed but questionable. Both of the EPDG flaws are
found on Owen but it's still 2-29 EPDG's so if some of the 350's were
printed using front plates from the 150 series I would expect at least a
few examples out of the 657 from 350 series with some of these flaws.

The other thing as Luke pointed out is on average the close
to equal numbers of EPDG to PD 350 for the elite 11. I can't see why they
would pull them from the Piedmont 350 printing but not the EPDG so to
me the most logical reason for them being close in numbers is the EPDG
printing started during end of the 150 series and they were pulled around
the same time at the beginning of the 350 series printing and the Owen
with the same flaw indicates the 150 plates were used for at least some
of the EPDG's.

[Pat R]

Here's another EPDG Owen with the spot on his sleeve.

EPDG-3.jpg

This one puts the number of EPDG subjects with the spot at 3 out 5
and Scott has a new PD150 with the spot up on ebay now that puts
the number of PD150's with the spot at 14
https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Owen-F...4AAOSwZrhah06B

but I still haven't found any PD350's or any other 350 backs with this
spot as a matter of fact I still haven't found any of the variations that
are found on the 150 subjects on any 350 backs.

There have been discussions before about the EPDG and Old Mill
printing timeline for the 150 series and from the research I've
done I think they might have been done in this order


150 series with EPDG backs
150 series with PD350 backs
150 series with Old Mill backs
350 series with PD350 backs
350 series with EPDG backs
350 series with Old Mill backs

[Pat R]

Just picked up the one on the left from Scott (thanks Scott).

Owens Group Back.jpg
Owens Group.jpg
Owens Group 1200dpi.jpg

[Pat R]

I found some more evidence that Group 1 (150/350) subjects might
have been printed with EPDG before any 350 backs were printed and the Old mills were only printed during the 350 series printing.

There are several L.Tannehills that have this red mark in the upper
left corner.
Tannehill SC350-25 - Copy.jpg

I haven't found or heard of any that are on a 150 back
but they are found on

PD350
Tannehill Red Mark PD350.jpg

SC350/25
Tannehill SC350-25.jpg

SC350/30
Tannehill Red Mark SC350-30.jpg

and I recently came across this Old Mill with the red mark
Tannehill Red Mark Old Mill.jpg

1 out of the 4 Old mills I found have it but 0 of the 12 EPDG's had it.

I think this could be important information to the timeline of the
back printing of print group 1 as it has been a common theory
that the EPDG and Old Mills were printed around the same time
during the 350 series printing.

[mybuddyinc]

Pat,

As always, great, fascinating work !!!

I just checked. I have a L. Tannehill with EPDG. Very unfortunately, it is miss cut to top (and has wear), so there is not enough border to see if there is a red mark or not....

I do agree with your theory that EPDGs were printed earlier.

Look forward to future findings, Scott

[Luke]

Good stuff Pat! Here's another Tannehill OM.

[Luke]

I think when you take all the info into consideration, the only conclusion that makes sense is for EPDG to be either the first of the "350" backs, or the last of the 150s.

The Elite 11 guys shed a lot of light on it. Take Tom Jones for example. It seems that he was printed for the entire EPDG print run (because he is as plentiful as any 150-350 Series pose with EPDG back), but then he was pulled early in the P350 print run. The logical conclusion there is that either the EPDG print run was finished before the P350 print run started, or at least part of the EPDG print run had be run to completion.

Another bit of evidence is that as of now, I have never seen a 150-350 Series EPDG with either "dark ink" or the "washed out" look that some P350, Sov350, SC350, and OMs have.

I have no doubt EPDGs were printed before any other 350 backs.

My theory on 150-350 Old Mills is that they were printed in at least two different runs. There are some poses that can only be found with a clear, precisely registered image (like the 150s), and others that can only be found with a washed out image (like some 350s). This leads me to believe that the two sets of poses were printed at different times. Although, it could just be one long print run where the first set of sheets came out looking crisp like the 150s, and the quality deteriorated as they ran off the subsequent sheets.

In the examples below, Schlei has "dark ink" and Overall is "washed out". You won't find any EPDG that has either characteristic.