Ashamed - Topps T206 Buy Back Fraud

[JEFFV96MASTERS]

I rarely post but this discussions worthy of weighing in.

Can people modify items produced by companies with little fear of criminal or civil action brought against them ? Of course. Its done all the time.

Can you take a product that has copyrights ( which EVERY Topps produced item does- check the USPTO website) and modify it ??? YES you may. Its done all the time .

Can you take the product you modify and then go online and either misrepresent that product as being "original", or try and sell it without disclosure of said modifications ?

Um- no.

Depending on the level of deceit we may be talking a tort ( a "civil" action) where values are relatively low and usually get assigned to small claims, or in the case of folks like John Rogers/Doug Allen/Bill Mastro actions worthy of criminal prosecution.

Depending on the length, level, and severity of this persons actions he's looking at either time in small claims should he not make restitution and people care to come after him-- or if he's been stupid enough to take it up a few levels and bring the average transaction above 2500 - he's going to see someone take him to criminal court.

As far as this guys being ashamed- dude shut up. Your a serial liar, a serial fraudster, and need to stop with the excuse offerings. Your not convincing anyone of your innocence. Once or twice- OK. Multiple times over extended years ? Sorry - that's a pattern of behavior that's not likely just happening in baseball cards.

Its doubtful anyone will forgive and very doubtful they'll forget anytime soon.

Best thing Leon can do is make sure your info is properly disseminated to afflicted parties.

My opinion--

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by JEFFV96MASTERS

Can you take a product that has copyrights ( which EVERY Topps produced item does...

From my interpretation from the copyright.gov website, these cards are not copyrighted. They lack the qualifications for a copyright. To substantiate this, there are no copyright notices ( © ) on the cards while other Topps products do contain the copyright notice.

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Feel free to ask me any questions, but I doubt I'll have satisfactory or concrete answers.

Do you know if Topps has a copyright on these? Why no copyright notice?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

From my interpretation from the copyright.gov website, these cards are not copyrighted. They lack the qualifications for a copyright. To substantiate this, there are no copyright notices ( © ) on the cards while other Topps products do contain the copyright notice.



Do you know if Topps has a copyright on these? Why no copyright notice?

No Topps did not copyright the holder, at least to my knowledge, only the cards it printed to go inside. You will see the copyright on the autograph and relic minis, but the frame wasn't deemed worth bothering over, it seems (though it does have the Topps206 name on it...), and clearly the t206s themselves aren't Topps' intellectual property.

I think you've hit the key to the legality of this.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I think you've hit the key to the legality of this.

Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.

OP: I took cards submitted in Topps packs, that were intended to and did interest people in buying Topps cards, and made hidden changes to trick customers into thinking they were buying the original inserts, for my own economic gain.

Response: The inserts didn't contain a copyright mark. You're good.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's fraud. An open and shut case of fraud. Who gives a damn about copyright?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's fraud. An open and shut case of fraud. Who gives a damn about copyright?

Copyright only means something if i was going to sell my own holders that look and resemble the style of the ones with t206 cards but everyone knows that they arent from topps...there could be an argument from topps that i couldnt do that.. When you are sellling something alleging they are topps holder t206s and they aren't thats fraud...

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's fraud. An open and shut case of fraud. Who gives a damn about copyright?

Peter - you are up against the:

"I'm not a lawyer but I play one on TV" crowd here ... they obviously don't understand the meaning of the word fraud.

jeff

[JollyElm]

D.A. Jim Trotter: Now, uh, Ms. Vito, being an expert on general automotive knowledge, can you tell me... what would the correct ignition timing be on a 1955 Bel Air Chevrolet, with a 327 cubic-inch engine and a four-barrel carburetor?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a bullshit question.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Does that mean that you can't answer it?
Mona Lisa Vito: It's a bullshit question, it's impossible to answer.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Impossible because you don't know the answer!
Mona Lisa Vito: Nobody could answer that question!
D.A. Jim Trotter: Your Honor, I move to disqualify Ms. Vito as a "expert witness"!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Can you answer the question?
Mona Lisa Vito: No, it is a trick question!
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Why is it a trick question?
Vinny Gambini: [to Bill] Watch this.
Mona Lisa Vito: 'Cause Chevy didn't make a 327 in '55, the 327 didn't come out till '62. And it wasn't offered in the Bel Air with a four-barrel carb till '64. However, in 1964, the correct ignition timing would be four degrees before top-dead-center.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Well... um... she's acceptable, Your Honor.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.

It's exactly the point here. You're arguing the ethicality of it. You're right! You win! Nobody is disputing that. I'm arguing the legality of it, and you couldn't be any more wrong. And I'm not arguing in a way to defend Larry. My point (which you and others have conveniently and deliberately twisted) was in response to whether or not Larry could face criminal action. It's my belief that he couldn't. There are certainly other consequences like being publically shamed, losing respect and trust in the hobby world, being banned from here, etc. But, as I said earlier, I'm finished discussing it. I simply wanted to know if the cards were copyrighted. I think we got the correct answer.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;1690847][QUOTE=T206Collector;1690836]Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.

It's exactly the point here. You're arguing the ethicality of it. You're right! You win! Nobody is disputing that. I'm arguing the legality of it, and you couldn't be any more wrong. And I'm not arguing in a way to defend Larry. My point (which you and others have conveniently and deliberately twisted) was in response to whether or not Larry could face criminal action. It's my belief that he couldn't. There are certainly other consequences like being publically shamed, losing respect and trust in the hobby world, being banned from here, etc. But, as I said earlier, I'm finished discussing it. I simply wanted to know if the cards were copyrighted. I think we got the correct answer.

Yes David you're right and every lawyer on the board who has posted that it's illegal fraud is wrong. Read the wire fraud statute which has been posted here and tell me which element is not met. Or you can just ignore it because your beliefs trump the actual law.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It's exactly the point here. You're arguing the ethicality of it. You're right! You win! Nobody is disputing that. I'm arguing the legality of it, and you couldn't be any more wrong. And I'm not arguing in a way to defend Larry. My point (which you and others have conveniently and deliberately twisted) was in response to whether or not Larry could face criminal action. It's my belief that he couldn't. There are certainly other consequences like being publically shamed, losing respect and trust in the hobby world, being banned from here, etc. But, as I said earlier, I'm finished discussing it. I simply wanted to know if the cards were copyrighted. I think we got the correct answer.

According to the authorities I have spoken with you are wrong. But what do they know anyway?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

According to the authorities I have spoken with you are wrong. But what do they know anyway?

They don't know shit and neither do I or Kenny or Paul or Adam or anyone I am leaving out to whom I apologize. David knows the law much better than we do.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're arguing the ethicality of it. . . . I'm arguing the legality of it, and you couldn't be any more wrong.

The point of my post was on the legality of the conduct -- which is in violation of several laws, state and federal, as well as criminal and civil... just maybe not copyright law.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Whether or not Topps copyrighted the holder is really besides the point here.

OP: I took cards submitted in Topps packs, that were intended to and did interest people in buying Topps cards, and made hidden changes to trick customers into thinking they were buying the original inserts, for my own economic gain.

Response: The inserts didn't contain a copyright mark. You're good.

I don't think anybody said "you're good." There are plenty of cases that are considered fraud within our hobby that are certainly not illegal. I would put this up there with trimming or recoloring cards and reselling them without that disclosure.

Are those things illegal? If the answer is no, are they automatically "good"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I don't think anybody said "you're good." There are plenty of cases that are considered fraud within our hobby that are certainly not illegal. I would put this up there with trimming or recoloring cards and reselling them without that disclosure.

Are those things illegal? If the answer is no, are they automatically "good"?

Yes, they are illegal, if you sell them without disclosure. You might try reading the Mastro indictment, for one thing.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes, they are illegal, if you sell them without disclosure. You might try reading the Mastro indictment, for one thing.

I should read the indictment, clearly.

So, simple question: It is not illegal to take the graphite end of a pencil and write on a t206 card (though many here might like it to be) and then list that on eBay without mention (because the writing would be pretty obvious). But to take the eraser end of the pencil to one that previously marks on it and list it on eBay without mention is punishable by law?