Will a Colorado Rockie EVER be Elected to the Hall of Fame?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

IMO Larry Walker is a HOFer. Even in Colorado you don't hit 360 or better 3 years in a row by accident. I think he was a better player than Andre Dawson and Jim Rice too.

His sabremetric numbers are pretty decent, based on these it would not be a crime certainly.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...alkela01.shtml

Interestingly he ranks ahead of Gwynn in JAWS, Gwynn does not hold up too well I guess because he didn't walk and he didn't hit for power.

I think he probably would have had a better chance with a few more years and a few higher lifetime numbers, he barely broke 2000 hits and didn't break 400 HR although obviously he was of a similar or better caliber than players who did.

ADD Also seems he missed more than his share of games due to injury keeping his counting stats down.

Probably condemned to the Hall of the Very Good along with guys like Jim Edmonds.

[PowderedH2O]

I agree with Peter. Walker was an amazing player, but a non-catcher position player that only has one season in which he played at least 144 games is going to have a hard time getting elected. Walker missed over 700 games in his career for various reasons.

With Helton, his road numbers are just not that great. At home he is Ted Williams, and on the road he is Willie Horton. Without Helton ever having played elsewhere, we will never know exactly where he should fall on the list. He could get in, but somehow I doubt it.

I think the Rockies HOFer is going to be someone that puts up all-star caliber numbers on the road. Nolan Arenado?

[KCRfan1]

Helton posted good road numbers. Let's not under sell him.

[D. Bergin]

Yeah, with a quick look, I noticed the difference between Helton and Walkers Home/Road splits were nearly identical with each other.

Walker however did spend his first 5 full seasons playing in Montreal, so I don't know how much it skews things for him on his overall lifetime splits.

It does seem odd that two guys with lifetime OPS rates of around .950 who had no allegations of steroid use, will likely not sniff the HOF. That's a career season for most star caliber players, let alone a career.

[clydepepper]

Great Discussion, Guys! Just what I was looking for.


Now for the Pitching question:

Pretend you are the agent for a very high draft pick just chosen by Colorado.

Do you have him play for the St. Paul Saints for a year ala J.D. Drew?


or...

Pretend you are the agent for one of the best pitchers in Baseball who just became a free agent and Colorado is offering BY FAR the best deal.

Do you remind your client of Mike Hampton, etc. or tell him you will take half your normal fee if he signs elsewhere?


.

[KCRfan1]

Pitchers are such a crap shoot in the draft.

I would almost draft bats, and chase arms in FA. At least then they would have gotten TJ surgery out of the way, or they have held up and won't need it.

SP

If I'm the Rockies, I want ground ball specialists and off speed masters. Those 95 mph fastballs will eventually get hit and go a long ways.

RP

I want heaters in my pen though. That fast ball is going to be nasty after facing those SP.

[bravos4evr]

I think Walker gets in. Maybe not on a ballot, but he will be one of the first Vet committee guys put in. He was too good for too long and the best Rockie probably ever.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Probably condemned to the Hall of the Very Good along with guys like Jim Edmonds.

I hope that you're wrong about Edmonds not getting in.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Sean

I hope that you're wrong about Edmonds not getting in.

it'll be up to the committee as he fell of the ballot after only a year or so. IMO, if you are a Jim Edmonds fan, you should be rooting for Andruw Jones to get in as he is only 2.6 fWAR ahead of Edmonds and if Jones gets in, it buttresses Edmonds' case.

ETA: one thing that hurts Edmonds is roids. His best seasons were ages 32-35, that doesn't look very good.

[packs]

I ding Edmonds for his appearances on Real Housewives. I mean, I uh, heard he's on that show....from my girlfriend.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by packs

I ding Edmonds for his appearances on Real Housewives. I mean, I uh, heard he's on that show....from my girlfriend.

Shouldn't they have recruited Evan Longoria for that show? Oh, Yeah. That was 'Desperate Housewives'.


.

[Topps206]

Everybody benefits from hitting in Coors. Larry Walker was no different, but his HOF Standards and HOF Monitor scores are better than average, not to mention he's up there in black ink. JAWS ranks him 10th all time among right fielders, the only one in the top 10 not yet in and higher than 13 who are already enshrined.

He was still a fantastic player on the road and many times as a Rockie hit .300 or close to it away from Coors.

In my opinion, he is a Hall of Famer. He is also part of the Hall of Stats and Hall of Merit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

it'll be up to the committee as he fell of the ballot after only a year or so. IMO, if you are a Jim Edmonds fan, you should be rooting for Andruw Jones to get in as he is only 2.6 fWAR ahead of Edmonds and if Jones gets in, it buttresses Edmonds' case.

ETA: one thing that hurts Edmonds is roids. His best seasons were ages 32-35, that doesn't look very good.

I cannot imagine Andruw Jones is ever getting in the HOF.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I cannot imagine Andruw Jones is ever getting in the HOF.

he should, greatest defensive OF'er of all time (and it's not even close) 400 homers, top 10 in CF WAR.

Higher career fWAR than Duke Snider, Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn.


anyone who is one of the ten best at their position ,all time, should be in the HOF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

he should, greatest defensive OF'er of all time (and it's not even close) 400 homers, top 10 in CF WAR.

Higher career fWAR than Duke Snider, Andre Dawson, Richie Ashburn.


anyone who is one of the ten best at their position ,all time, should be in the HOF.

I am not arguing the merits, I am just saying a .254 hitting outfielder will not get in, in my opinion. He really fell off the table at age 30, I can't remember now was it injury?

[nat]

Maz was a poor choice. He was a great fielder, but also a lousy hitter. I think that the home run made a big difference. FWIW, after he was elected the hall changed the way the vet's committee works, making it much harder for them to elect players.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am not arguing the merits, I am just saying a .254 hitting outfielder will not get in, in my opinion. He really fell off the table at age 30, I can't remember now was it injury?

he started having knee issues.

HOWEVER, he was in MLB at age 19. If he had come up at 22 and played until 38 would anyone have an issue? Instead it was 19-35ish and people think he crashed.

and batting avg? c'mon man, not even the voters use that any more. (and the few that did were purged)

[nat]

A. Jones for the hall is probably a no-go, but he's got an interesting case. By the best way we have for measuring defensive performance, Jones is far and away the greatest defensive outfielder of all time. (Paul Blair and Willie Mays are essentially tied for second, and Jones has about a 33% lead on them.)

There are reasons to be skeptical of this. The way the system works is that it breaks the field down into zones and assigns levels of credit for plays made in each zone, depending on how often someone playing your position makes a play in that zone. (You also lose credit if you fail to make a play in a zone that you should be expected to make given the position that you were playing.) Some people speculate that Jones was able to range out into LF and RF and make spectacular plays that his fellow outfielders would have made anyway. (They were spectacular for Jones because CF to RF can be a long way to go, they would be easy for the RF because he's already right there.) I don't know if this holds water, but it's one criticism of Jones' defensive performance.

Another problem is that we didn't have this zone-based measure of defense for most of baseball history. We did have less accurate ways of measuring defense; but, knowing that they are less accurate, when comparing players across eras we regress the less accurate stats towards average. This means that truly unusual performances (both positive and negative) get overlooked. So Jones might not be as far ahead of everyone else as it looks like he is.

If Jones really was as good defensively as our best defensive stats say that he was, he's well qualified for the hall. If the worries I raised above are on point, then he's a more iffy candidate. (At least on the merits. I agree he won't actually get in.)

[1952boyntoncollector]

The Marlins are in talks to trade Ichiro to the Rockies. He will hit 6 homers there rest of year if he is traded now and most importantly that would land them a former player in the HOF

[Topps206]

Andruw Jones has a case for Cooperstown. There is an argument for and against, but you'll be waiting a while if you think he will get in.