It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

[jefferyepayne]

I now stay clear of any auction in which a bidder with multiple retractions OR has close to 0 feedback is involved. If PWCC won't adequately police these obvious shillers / crooks, I will. Somebody else can get taken.

jeff

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have been apart of many two person bidding wars. None of the auctions were shilled. It generally happens on low pop cards from sets that are competitive on the PSA set registry. I too look at the "pack" and use those bids as my baseline for value realizing that gap between the pack and our bids is not real value. Overtime the pack may move closer to the winning bid and if so then the real value has increased.

I like the term 'the pack'. I also have bid on a card and i see the same 2 people bidding on it on ebay past sales and when one wins the card, the other one snags the later card. Then on the third time around it sells for a lot cheaper. Obviously if its a POP 2 card that wont happen, but lets say it was for a Babe Ruth PSA 3 goudey card.. would be plenty of opportunities as long as its not being hoarded etc..

Iacard with worth what someone is willing to pay for it but historical prices with suspect bidding (not shilled but only interest between 2 bidders) above 'the pack' i would change that expression to what someone NOW would be willing to pay for it

[MantleBham]

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC has very high visibility and they do a very nice job with their auctions and have a loyal following, so it doesn't surprise me at all that they get strong prices relative to other ebay sellers. What I have never really grasped, though, is some of the crazy premiums they seem to get for commodity cards. I get irrational exuberance on genuinely difficult cards, we're all guilty of that.

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

You do the math.

I will say I hate the title of this thread as I seriously doubt PWCC is actually doing the shilling.

Also what is the difference with PWCC versus any of the other online auction houses? How are they magically stopping shilling?

My experience with them has been the opposite. The last higher end card I sent Brent I first listed here, dropped the price and would have accepted a slightly lower offer, and it ended up selling for more than my original ask. Without being shilled.

[Peter_Spaeth]

With that many cards on the auction block, experiences are going to vary. I don't think the fact that some guys did relatively poorly means that every strong price is shilled. At the same time, I have seen some that leave me shaking my head and some bidding patterns that looked pretty damn suspicious and it wouldn't surprise me at all if they were consignors running up their own.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I, and a couple of friends, have sold some higher end "commodity" cards through PWCC. 1965 Mantle in PSA 8, Gretzky and Jordan Rookies in 8, Seaver Rookie in 7 etc...

We didn't shill bid.

We received as much as 35% less for the exact same card in the exact same auction.

Exactly. I both buy from and sell with PWCC. I set my buy price at my comfort level and forget about it. With selling, most of the cards sell for what I expect. However, you do get a few outliers both high and low. It's the nature of the auction format, the fact that these cards aren't a commodity, and a myriad of other factors.

[Neal]

4SC cards are often priced low …. and are BUY IT NOWS (like most everything)

PWCC are true auctions, which is rare nowadays. PWCC always auctions great stuff - so of course the bid percentage is very high with them as they are one of the only games in town

Not defending them, but like many, will continue to buy from them

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

What I don’t get is this. Shill bidding or not is irrelevant. They couldn’t have a viable business unless someone at the end of the chain is paying. It might be the second chance offer, but someone is paying a highly inflated price in the end.

Why?

PWCC auctions routinely close higher than many BIN listings, who the hell is bidding above the BIN from other sellers?

That’s insanely stupid!

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

It's not rocket science,. It boils down to fleecing new consignors Into sending items that do sell for real bids, much lower than last sales.

[bensie]

Originally Posted by MantleBham

Case in point 4 sharp corners had a 1984 Fleer Update Puckett PSA 9 for $147, the PWCC auction closed at $202, what morons are bidding up that extra $60? It can’t just be shill bids, or they wouldn’t have a business.

Cards are not fungible. The 4SC 9 may have been more obviously defective than the PWCC card.

However, I do agree with the first part of your post. Shilling isn't a viable business model. If you guys are so convinced that they shill and push the value of the auctions artificially high, then the answer is simple. Buy from somewhere else and then consign your cards with PCCC to exploit what you think is their unfair advantage.