It is Sickening how badly PWCC Shill Bids!

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

there were a few 51 mantle rookies in the 3-4 range ended last night w/pwcc...and I was surprised how low they sold for...definitely not shilled so it would seem!

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

[Rookiemonster]

Not trying to defend PWCC by any means but it is up to the collector to bid accordingly. Like the game Leon so graciously has on the board. Take a guess at the price of the card/items you want. Then when it's time to bid don't bid more then that. That's what I do haha sure you lose some , but you also win some. For me getting that card at the price I like is just as important as the card to me.

Know your cards! Know your prices ! Snipe!snipe! snipe! And that should put a end to YOU being shilled.

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Know your cards! Know your prices ! Snipe!snipe! snipe! And that should put a end to YOU being shilled.

No. It will not.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

Agreed...centering is boss of the 4 traits. Surface and edges is like a red headed stepchild.

[Batpig]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

The psa 3 and 5 were both well centered, and sold above the highest reported sale on vcp. The other two were way off center and sold below averages. This should not come as much of a surprise.

Stop using facts.

Is there shilling with PWCC? Yep, but there's shilling with every AH. Sub par results are not a given if no shilling is involved. My last consignment with PWCC included about 100 cards, and I estimated a 9k hammer altogether. I didn't shill any of them, and the total hammer was over 11k.

Having said that, there's things I would never auction with Brent. I tested out some modern unopened and was not happy at all with the results. I've been handling those myself ever since.

I'm actually surprised I've never seen anyone complain about his shipping fees. I wouldn't be surprised if a large amount of his profits come from shipping.

[darwinbulldog]

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Obviously if you don't bid more than you're willing to pay you won't have to pay more than you're willing to pay. The problem is that the prices we are willing to pay are, quite reasonably, a function of what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past. And what others have paid for the same or similar cards in the past is a function of the prevalence of shilling in the hobby.

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

Add me to the list. I view shilling as a "hidden reserve" in every auction I participate in. I pay what I am comfortable paying, and I do not view the history of prices in the market as decided by a pure, free market -- and instead, only an approximation of what one person may have been willing to pay at a certain time for an item.

I do think shilling is an unfortunate, market distorting side effect of the historical baseball card valuation process. But, I do not think there really is anything to be done about it except discourage the practice by prosecuting offenders as they occasionally become identified through their own criminal ineptitude.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's scary how many people do not grasp this.

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

[Exhibitman]

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Perhaps the better formulation is that outlier prices are likely the result of shilling.

I also think the effects of just two buyers who really want a card..forms an outlier price versus the general public that creates a 'shilled' like historical price.... What is nice on ebay is you can see sometimes that a card was really bid up to a certain amount between 4-7 guys for example..but then the rest of the way was 2 guys..... when a winning bid is the result of 2 guys bidding up a card more than 50% of the value, using that past price as historical value is the same as using a shilled bid in my book

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

So all cards in the hobby are now price gouged due to many years of shilling? So all cards should be priced at what they were before EBay or any auction house was invented? I really don't believe that is the case . And if this is the case then we have to make a decision on what we value a card at. Like I said originally not so hard to grasp.

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I never said that, you are putting words in my mouth.

I know you never said that,but if we are to believe that the current value of the cards we are bidding on have all been pre shilled( I coined this term all rights reserved on preshilled lol) by many years of shill bidding giving us a inflated current market price then what are they worth?

I still believe that a experienced collector can be the judge of a cards value they are in pursuit of.

I was bidding on a card last year in one of the auctions they had and I bid early just so it was on my radar. With half the time left the price reach was already more then I was willing to pay for that card in that condition. So I stopped bidding and the next week I found a better example for less( else where)

[T206Collector]

Do you know why every "timed" auction house other than eBay....

(1) requires an initial bid prior to a standard closing time; and

(2) extends its auction based on bids after the standard closing time?

Because they are consignor-friendly policies that drive prices up, and they do not want to encourage sniping, which keeps prices low.

If you are bidding in an eBay auction with a fixed end time, why would you make an "initial bid" prior to closing time? Are you intentionally trying to give more money to the consignor?

In this respect, eBay is one place where shilling shouldn't work. If everyone snipes, the shiller has a tougher time pegging his "shill snipe" high enough to lose, but low enough to drive prices up illegitimately.

Indeed, if sniping was good for shilling behavior, don't you think eBay would endorse a sniping service, or provide one internally? The fact that they don't tells you everything you need to know about why sniping is good for buyers and bad for consignors and shillers.