Brent Huigens - PWCC. Do you really want to keep this game up? I'm ready boss.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Man, we have a very noteworthy event, a 50K card that PSA supposedly specifically blessed during a live auction after serious questions were raised about it being altered, the card now suddenly gets yanked from the registry, all sorts of questions remain about the supposed explanation from PWCC and the lack of other relevant information, and the thread degenerates into a name-calling and pissing contest.

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?


If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?


If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

If after all that Brent did not make them aware of the controversy when he sent it in, and the reason for doing so, then shame on him. And I doubt PSA was unaware of it even if Brent didn't say anything, do you really think nobody made Joe aware of the thread here?

[Leon]

I agree with you David. So far, I feel PWCC has done the right things to make things as right as they can be. A lot of the other stuff seems to be guys whining over speculating and losing money. Just not a ton of sympathy out there for that. On the other hand, if fraud or lies are proven against anyone, things can change. But I spoke with PWCC quite some time ago about the card in question. If I recall correctly I told them, if it were me, I think the deal should be undone at the buyer's discretion. It has been and still the griping and conspiracies..oy vey..move onto the next speculation...

..And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer. That being said, to me it didn't look like any worse of a grade than I have seen on a daily basis. How is that for an underhanded compliment and back-stab in the same fell swoop?

**of course PWCC is an advertiser but it's not like they are being protected, this is just my opinion so far....

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I think you're trying to make the situation more complicated than it is. Perhaps it really was sent in for a review, but PSA didn't know the controversy surrounding it at the time? Then later, after the card was already sent back, they were made aware of it and decided to get the card off the market?

If it really was sent in for a review, it was probably overnighted, PSA spent all of 3 minutes looking at it, then it was probably mailed back the same day.

IDK, maybe your conspiracy theory is better than my logical explanation?

[Peter_Spaeth]

PWCC never should have sold the card without full disclosure of its history of alteration/restoration. It's that simple. The card's history was a clearly material fact, known fully by Brent who personally was involved. How has PWCC done the right things here, Leon? Is a fraudulent omission a "right thing"?

[Leon]

I think they sold a card without full disclosure but it was a graded card. They undid the deal or allowed it to be undone. That was the right thing to do, imo. And I am done as I stated my opinion already. Unless there is something different I will just give the Gorsuch stare.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PWCC never should have sold the card without full disclosure of its history of alteration/restoration. It's that simple. The card's history was a clearly material fact, known fully by Brent who personally was involved. How has PWCC done the right things here, Leon? Is a fraudulent omission a "right thing"?

[Peter_Spaeth]

To beat the horse again, that it was graded does not excuse the absence of disclosure, particularly where Brent knew the grade was the result of alteration/restoration and that the card had been in a three grades lower holder previously. And I don't think we have the full story on post-sale events.

Oh, and let me add...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To beat the horse again, that it was graded does not excuse the absence of disclosure, particularly where Brent knew the grade was the result of alteration/restoration and that the card had been in a three grades lower holder previously. And I don't think we have the full story on post-sale events.

Oh, and let me add...

I have seen in some auction houses that a card used to be a SGC7 and the card now is a PSA 6.......basically when its a positive thing for them to disclose....

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I have seen in some auction houses that a card used to be a SGC7 and the card now is a PSA 6.......basically when its a positive thing for them to disclose....

Just a simple question and maybe someone knows the answer. In the comic book community, a comic book can be restored and given a better appearance. The graders can detect all the restoration done to a comic and give it the applicable grade with a purple label that basically means "restoration has taken place". Are the graders of cards unable to detect the restoration techniques? I am in the camp, that I see nothing wrong with restoring a card, as long as it is taking away something that shouldn't have been there to begin with from the factory (surface wrinkle, ink mark, etc).

[Moonlight Graham]

As an outsider, and hindsight being 20/20, I really don't understand why Brent didn't just kill the auction when he saw how much was being made of the grade, etc. Why chance having to eat that kind of money if things go bad, like they did. Especially if you compare your commission to the amount you may have to refund, it seems like a no-brainer. Brent should know that nothing ever gets by this board, there are way too many knowledgeable people on here. Also, I don't get why PWCC would post a couple of comments and in the second one state that this is the last time you're going to address this issue. It seems like a really big issue with potential fraud, and if you are just an innocent auction house, why not answer as many questions and be as transparent as you possibly can? Again, I'm new to this issue and these are just my 2 cents.

Joe K

[cincyredlegs]

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree with you David. So far, I feel PWCC has done the right things to make things as right as they can be. A lot of the other stuff seems to be guys whining over speculating and losing money. Just not a ton of sympathy out there for that. On the other hand, if fraud or lies are proven against anyone, things can change. But I spoke with PWCC quite some time ago about the card in question. If I recall correctly I told them, if it were me, I think the deal should be undone at the buyer's discretion. It has been and still the griping and conspiracies..oy vey..move onto the next speculation...

..And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer. That being said, to me it didn't look like any worse of a grade than I have seen on a daily basis. How is that for an underhanded compliment and back-stab in the same fell swoop?

**of course PWCC is an advertiser but it's not like they are being protected, this is just my opinion so far....

It seems to me PWCC only did "the right thing" after Courtney blew the lid off of this issue. I truly believe PWCC would not have done ANYTHING if Courtney had not come on here. So, I won't give PWCC the "easy pass".

We have similar threads/issues over their years where people were caught doing shady things and only did "the right thing" after getting called out on here.

Mark

[Batpig]

One of the things that may be overlooked here is that it appears that PSA is stating (without actually stating) that before and after photos are in fact enough to deem a card "Evidence of cleaning", regardless of a lack of chemical smell or other indicators.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Batpig

One of the things that may be overlooked here is that it appears that PSA is stating (without actually stating) that before and after photos are in fact enough to deem a card "Evidence of cleaning", regardless of a lack of chemical smell or other indicators.

++This is true. The 2nd item overlooked is the fact this crap happens every day at the AH's and nobody seems to give a hoot.

[rainier2004]

Technically the card is now altered and belongs in an authentic slab.

I would assume PSA detected nothing...why would they slab it a 7 if they had?

What a shit storm...and what are the odds that this is the tip of the iceberg?

[slidekellyslide]

I wonder how much trouble Doug Allen had getting cards past PSA that he had worked on? I wonder if PSA looks past their "big" customers? I honestly don't believe that any of what is going on is on the up and up. The HUGE dollar amounts between a 7 to 8 to 9 to GEM MINT have got to be very tempting. When the number a grader slaps on a slab pushes a card up tens of thousands of dollars when the difference between a 9 and 10 is difficult for anyone to see...I don't see how there isn't fraud happening unless every grader is Mother Theresa.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

i truly believe pwcc would not have done anything if courtney had not come on here. So, i won't give pwcc the "easy pass"

totally agree!!!

[PhillipAbbott79]

Originally Posted by cincyredlegs

It seems to me PWCC only did "the right thing" after Courtney blew the lid off of this issue. I truly believe PWCC would not have done ANYTHING if Courtney had not come on here.

Mark

I liken it to theft. Someone gets caught stealing something, they return the item, they apologize. Because the item went back to the owner, doesn't mean that a crime or misdemeanor wasn't committed and that there isn't consequences to the actions. The police could still get called, and that person could still be charged.

Regardless of the fact that they ate the commissions, price of the card, the card was pulled from the registry, all does not change the fact that the act actually occurred, and that there should be and could be consequences to that.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Leon

And I think it's good it came off the pop report (if it did) and it's not in that holder any longer.

Where did you read/hear this? It is not in Brent's post. That's why I asked the question as to what the end state of the card would be.

[nsaddict]

Well, the SMR on this card in PSA 1 is 950 (authentics not listed). I would be willing to help the hobby and buy this infamous card at "their" valuation

[Leon]

I assumed (yikes) this from what I read, I don't know if it is there or not, personally. I thought I read it got cracked out of the holder (and therefore wouldn't be there) but am not wading to find out. Again, if it is still in the 7 holder and on the report, so be it. I don't really care that much.

Originally Posted by swarmee

Where did you read/hear this? It is not in Brent's post. That's why I asked the question as to what the end state of the card would be.