PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Just my little tidbit.

Guy please, don't act like because I made 1000 or so that I am satisfied.
I did not consign this card and put up a lot of money to purchase it, to make 1000. I wholeheartedly feel screwed by this thread. My estimate was this card was going to hit the 60k mark at a minimum.

r!

Its a bit presumptive to think you were going to clear 10k on a card that you bought a short time ago and all of those experienced bidders opinion's in the auction you won the card are wrong. There could of been a good reason why you won the card at the price you did in those other bidders minds that also spend tons of money on high dollar cards as flippers. I do not think you were remotely 'wholeheartedly screwed' in making a $1000 on the card. There are a lot worst scenerios that would qualify. I wish my biggest buy/sell regret was only making $1000.

Also you did say earlier on this thread you were going to lose money or least there was a high risk on the card due to what was said on this thread and it turns out you did not so your predictions have not always been so accurate.

[Rookiemonster]

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

[bobbyw8469]

There was once a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan that someone cut out of a Sporting News and submitted as a card. Yes..you heard me right....A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING!!! Not sure the year of anything like that, but this person submitted three or so of them, they all got graded, and all brought big money. They included it into the master set.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

There was once a newspaper clipping of Nolan Ryan that someone cut out of a Sporting News and submitted as a card. Yes..you heard me right....A NEWSPAPER CLIPPING!!! Not sure the year of anything like that, but this person submitted three or so of them, they all got graded, and all brought big money. They included it into the master set.

Lets see the listing on the PSA registry.


Also as far as PSA having to do research when grading a card to see if the 'same' card had marks or whatever and perhaps cleaned. This is impractical unless they previously held the card in hand. They cant assume there was toning or other issues unless really see it. Scanners can show different things and what may look like a line on a card, may be on the holder etc..

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Lets see the listing on the PSA registry.


Also as far as PSA having to do research when grading a card to see if the 'same' card had marks or whatever and perhaps cleaned. This is impractical unless they previously held the card in hand. They cant assume there was toning or other issues unless really see it. Scanners can show different things and what may look like a line on a card, may be on the holder etc..

You can research it yourself. I'm busy. Here's the card (cough cough).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-The-Spo...-/201012634337

[Rookiemonster]

Right Robert I remember those now ! I thought becket was grading cuts for a while though . But maybe if we can put a list together of all the "know" major grading errors it will hold more weight then " hey look at this card psa" ( whiny little girl voice must be used with the last quotations).

Then we could even put a gross before and after price of theses errors.



Disclaimer:
All puns intended at all times

[Rookiemonster]

Noting good about this thread just sharing it because someone asked . http://www.blowoutcards.com/forums/v...n-pickups.html

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

May be quite a list.

[bobbyw8469]

Im telling you...that newspaper clipping takes the cake!! Maybe they should start grading that little vinyl record that has ball player images too!

[BeanTown]

I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that Brent gave the card to Joe Orlando to have special handling of the card. I think it's common sense that large customers of PSA have a direct line to Joe Orlando for special handling. The question is why would PSA turn a blind eye on accurately grading (yes I know subjective) on a high valued card and how many favors are being done on a yearly basis. I'm sure the the big boy submitters who get the special handling done from Joe are taking care of their personal cards or a special consignor.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I think it was mentioned in an earlier post that Brent gave the card to Joe Orlando to have special handling of the card. I think it's common sense that large customers of PSA have a direct line to Joe Orlando for special handling. The question is why would PSA turn a blind eye on accurately grading (yes I know subjective) on a high valued card and how many favors are being done on a yearly basis. I'm sure the the big boy submitters who get the special handling done from Joe are taking care of their personal cards or a special consignor.

Im sure auction houses are more flexible in disclosing flaws in certain cards from big consignors versus the everyday guy.

If you have a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 8 and only with a microscope you maybe can detect a small small micro wrinkle. How many auction houses would disclose that? As Peter says, if its not material, why not disclose it? I think auction houses would say that only if its material, they will disclose it.

Now for other cards, dont you think with some consignors, auction houses will disclose (small timers like me) that small small wrinkle but for others they wont....thats how it goes..

Id also like to hear from any member on this board that consigned a card and noticed that an auction house listed your card but failed to disclose some flaw. How many of you contacted the auction house to tell them about the flaw and to be sure to put it in the description. Afterall, if its not that big of a deal, why not disclose it...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Can somelist all the high dollar PSA graded cards the should not have been put in a holder?

Mastero wangner

Pwcc DiMaggio

What else is out there ?

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

I've seen countless high end cards I thought were trimmed, but none with any particular notoriety.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Right ! Good ones plus all the others Greg uncovered which I'm sure there must be more of .

These made it to the market but eventually were taken off.
http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=27012#more-27012

[Rookiemonster]

Wow ! Great read peter . So you can get PSAs attention. I'm not saying that they really give a šhït. I think it would bring more attention to what's going on either way.


Psa Favoritism grades for bigger fish :
It seems real to me . But if it is, you would think someone by would have said hey I send in psa 5s and get 7s back almost all the time! Right ? And if this is a real thing then why not have that entity send in your cards for you ? For a cost of course.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

[Whodunit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Whodunit

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Great points Peter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

I do agree with you. The grading companies do help reduce the risk of getting an altered card. Just way too much faith is put into the "flip" on high end cards.

[aloondilana]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector;r1632651

Its a bit presumptive to think you were going to clear 10k on a card that you bought a short time ago and all of those experienced bidders opinion's in the auction you won the card are wrong. There could of been a good reason why you won the card at the price you did in those other bidders minds that also spend tons of money on high dollar cards as flippers. I do not think you were remotely 'wholeheartedly screwed' in making a $1000 on the card. There are a lot worst scenerios that would qualify. I wish my biggest buy/sell regret was only making $1000.

Also you did say earlier on this thread you were going to lose money or least there was a high risk on the card due to what was said on this thread and it turns out you did not so your predictions have not always been so accurate.

Jake please, if you don't think this thread cost my final sale at least $7500 you are really freakin crazy!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by aloondilana

Jake please, if you don't think this thread cost my final sale at least $7500 you are really freakin crazy!

So you would rather have someone buy the card without knowing the prior sale. People look at net54 everyday. It is forseeable that someone would post the prior sale on that card during the auction.

You just seem to be complaining for the wrong reason. I dont think anyone on the board besides you will say it was bad that Greg brought up the prior sale. I guess you wish he brought it up AFTER the auction? The winner could of returned the card and asked for a refund if went for 60k.

So if the thread started after the sale the net effect may of been the same. I guess you wanted something to post that past sale AFTER the potential refund period expired.

I get why you are upset in general but dont understand why you are upset at the timing of the information of the thread and you did Make a Thousand dollars and the buyer may have been fully informed as well and wont ask for a refund. I just think you are mad at the wrong people.

Also again, i guess i am crazy because i still dont think the card goes for 7500 more than what you paid for it a short time ago and nobody else bothered to bid higher than you and give up a 'sure $5000'

[irv]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

Fair question, as I am mostly a buyer also. Truth be told, I've bought 90% of my cards on PWCC. Over the last 6 years, close to 2,000 cards, all from 70-77 and all PSA 9's (except for a few 71 8's; and this doesn't include the high end raw sets I bought 3-5 years ago before they started breaking them up)

Until you can show me another auction house that has their hands clean and has the quantity and quality that I look for, then I'll stick with PWCC. And if I can't snipe, I essentially stay away.

PWCC will be at the National. I recommend if you have an issue with them, ask for Brent, look him in the eye, and ask away. It's easy to tell someone to F-off or make accusations on a forum. Face to face, little different.

I will be at the National this year also, my first one in 30? years, and would love to meet some of you whether we disagree or not. You can find me at the $20 card bins.

Uh? Where did that come from? I am disappointed with a lot of things in this thread, but telling someone to F-off to their face isn't something that has even crossed my mind at this point.

I have had nothing but good luck with pwcc, and like I said, spoke highly of them prior, but I personally hate to read things like this in any type of scenario, so, like I said earlier, I think I'll avoid/stay away from them, or at least for a while, or until everything comes out in the wash, if it ever does?

Lately, I have had pretty good luck purchasing cards cheaper and not having to pay a $15 dollar shipping fee, which works out to about $20, give or take, to get it up here.

Curious, is the $15 what you guys pay state side as well?

[aloondilana]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

So you would rather have someone buy the card without knowing the prior sale. People look at net54 everyday. It is forseeable that someone would post the prior sale on that card during the auction.

You just seem to be complaining for the wrong reason. I dont think anyone on the board besides you will say it was bad that Greg brought up the prior sale. I guess you wish he brought it up AFTER the auction? The winner could of returned the card and asked for a refund if went for 60k.

So if the thread started after the sale the net effect may of been the same. I guess you wanted something to post that past sale AFTER the potential refund period expired.

I get why you are upset in general but dont understand why you are upset at the timing of the information of the thread and you did Make a Thousand dollars and the buyer may have been fully informed as well and wont ask for a refund. I just think you are mad at the wrong people.

Also again, i guess i am crazy because i still dont think the card goes for 7500 more than what you paid for it a short time ago and nobody else bothered to bid higher than you and give up a 'sure $5000'

Ok Jake, you don't think this thread hurt the card at least 7500 bucks?
Cmon, seriously ?!? I don't care if I get banned from this site, as you can tell from my measly 67 posts in 4 years I don't live on this site like you.
So go F yourself!, better yet have Greg do it for you. Loser! Get a life you spend way too much time arguing nonsense on this message board!

[Peter_Spaeth]

LOL. Of course we can't know with certainty unless someone comes forward and so attests, but I agree with John it is certainly very plausible that there are folks who read or heard about this thread and didn't bid, or bid less. It's just common sense. I don't know why certain people on this thread want to fight different aspects of the obvious.

[ezez420]

I second Johns response. This ridiculous post definitely put a damper on the card for bs. Frankly who gives a sht whether a card was any grade before. I think someone should pay restitution to John for hurting auction.

[mechanicalman]

I understand completely how anyone reading this thread would have been dissuaded to bid on this card. This was bad PR. Nothing good came to the consignor from the thread.

What I don't understand is the presumption that the card would have appreciated 30% in the course of five months had this thread not existed. I'm not even trying to be confrontational, but can someone please explain what economic forces are at play to drive a card from $47k in Oct to the expected $60k+ in Feb? Are eBay buyers that much more deep pocketed than the ones shopping Goldin? Perhaps it's because I'm not a flipper, but what am I missing here?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL. Of course we can't know with certainty unless someone comes forward and so attests, but I agree with John it is certainly very plausible that there are folks who read or heard about this thread and didn't bid, or bid less. It's just common sense. I don't know why so many people on this thread want to fight different aspects of the obvious.

Obviously it COULD have hurt his auction, but I gotta say, while, if I were in his shoes, I would be pissed as well for a lot of reasons, at a lot of people, I doubt it hurt it by $7500. (diagram THAT sentence grammar police!) I mean really what % of the buying public for a card in this echelon do we really think N54 represents? We already have proof that people shelling out big bucks don't necessarily do any research on the card before they pull the trigger. So a non-member very likely never stumbled across this debacle.

Seriously though I'd love to hear estimates on a %. We may collectively be a big fish in a small pond, but I'm guessing we're a smaller fish in a bigger pond than you might think.

All that said I still feel for him as, unless I missed something, he was an innocent bystander who got slammed by circumstance.

Now if he would just apologize for the douchey $20 collector comment...

[ezez420]

Greg dont you think you should compensate John for interfering with his auction whether privately or with PWCC for that matter?

If I owned a card like that and you messed with it on me we would be having a different conversation. And I am sure others on here would be same way. You should have waited until it ended. Curious to here your thoughts...