PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The Plank that Doug had rebacked. Probably countless others. PSA 6 Doyle altered to look like the impossible rarity that apparently was submitted in a stack of commons.

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

[Whodunit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Whodunit

Peter,

Most high end collectors aren't indifferent to that (or at least experienced ones). As a rookie, like everyone else, I bought the holder as opposed to the card. As I became educated, I started ignoring grades and buying the card. Granted, I may have wanted a PSA 8 52 Mantle, and could have gotten a 7 that looked like an 8, but sometimes, you just want the grade b/c it grows in value faster. But, in that situation, I (personally) wait until the "right" 8 comes along.

Just last week I had a VERY good friend come to me for advice on a particular card in the 30K range. It was an attrocious 8.5 and one I'd cringe at everytime I pulled it out to look at it if I owned it. That being said, I talked him into waiting for a 9 to come along (for a multitude of reasons but mainly b/c of how bad the 8.5 was and the difference in 8.5 to 9 in terms of long term value/investment on vintage). And, also to make sure he does the same thing with a 9.............get one with great eye appeal.

Don't lump all high end collectors into the same pool. Some of us started out with the right idea but it took being seasoned or burned due to value to realize that all "8's" are not created equal.

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[Whodunit]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

Excellent clarification. It seems that the ones that you may be referring to are akin to or either the "new money" that came into the hobby during the recent booms and started buying up everything from the bottom to top end of every grade. If it had value, it didn't seem that they cared what it looked like. There were several auctions that I saw "go" and when the final hammer dropped, I was like "Why?!?!?!". LOL.

[Leon]

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would emphasize the word "created." In my opinion having collected as an adult since the early 90s, many of the very expensive high end cards out there, starting with the Wagner, have been worked on in some way prior to being submitted. I did not mean to imply that you personally, or EVERY high end collector is indifferent to that, but my interactions with many people convince me that many are in fact indifferent to it, or resigned, or in denial, or some combination of the above.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

I thought everyone knew that. When you buy an old cracker jack card with no staining etc and its in a PSA 7 holder, you assume something happened to it previously. Dont you? I prefer not to see that same card in a prior sale as a PSA 4 but the risk is there i would think

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I thought everyone knew that. When you buy an old cracker jack card with no staining etc and its in a PSA 7 holder, you assume something happened to it previously. Dont you? I prefer not to see that same card in a prior sale as a PSA 4 but the risk is there i would think

Jake, I doubt many buyers make that assumption. Do you think the person who bought the new and improved Nagurski assumed it had been worked on, for example? To be clear the last several posts have been about the high end, but it goes on at any level where there is money to be made.

[MW1]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

Leon,

I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by MW1

Leon,

I think we both know this isn't completely true. There have been dozens of important finds of high-grade cards, both pre-war and post-war in the last 30 years. Some of them have been publicized on this very forum. I have personally seen a large quantity of these high-grade cards when they were first discovered--everything from T206s, Sport Kings and Diamond Stars taken from unopened packs to perfect condition 1933 Goudeys. And we all know of the 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack factory sets that have been found and graded as well as large accumulations of candy/caramel cards such as those which constituted the "Black Swamp" find. There have also been many collections, like that of Lionel Carter or the discoveries of Alan Rosen, that have brought thousands more original, high-grade cards into the marketplace.

+1

Michael beat me to it....

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by Leon

Every old timer I have spoken with agrees with you 100%. These great, great looking pre war cards just didn't exist before. If folks are collecting cards in super high condition then they should know there is a good chance the card they own has been cleaned or worse.... Here is a message I got a few days ago from someone that anyone who has been in the hobby 10+ yrs knows the name of...but he asked me to keep him anonymous so I am doing so..

Don't these buyers of high end cards realize that this 36 DiMaggio is just the very tip of the iceberg, that there are in fact thousands and thousands of altered cards that end up slabbed? Skilled paper restorers learned a long time ago that most of their work will go undetected by TPG's, and these submissions have been going on for many years. Old time collectors who were around in the 1960's and 70's all agree they rarely ever saw pristine vintage cards. Now, they are all over the hobby. They are the engine that drive the very profitable registry market, so it's conceivable the graders turn a blind eye to them. I wonder if this part of the hobby will ever be publicly exposed by say an FBI investigation?

I'm sure there were plenty of pristine cards found in the 60's and 70's but news of these didn't travel like it does now. We didn't have the internet to make sure news of these finds travels around the world within a day or so.
James

[BeanTown]

I think Cortney and Brent had a very good friendship which benefited both of them for many years. Sorry, it has gone south as hate and love both use the same part of the brain.

Cortney, I have never met you, or spoke to you. All I can go off from are your postings on this one thread. I like hearing the perspective from a buyer of high money cards in "PSA" holders where you seem to buy and sell these cards like commodities. my hunch isyourreally good at what you do and it's rare you have a bad deal. You remind me of one of the Hunt brothers back in the late 70s/80s.
Upon the rare impulse I have to buy a 25k card or higher in a PSA holder, rest assured I will attempt to win it as a snipe or a late night bid. My suspicions were dead on, that some people like to buy these cards like Apple shares.

PWCC I have always supported with positive post in recent years. Sorry you had a relationship go south from a large consignor. However, everything happens for a reason and I'm sure other future consigners will pick up the slack on the consignment front. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I think PWCC runs a professional operation and I'm very impressed with their market dominance in Ebay. I have spoke to Brent before both on the phone and in person at the National. It's safe to say I like him and support him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Betsy has returned emails to me when I was in communication with them and she was very professional and courteous as well. I won 8 cards from them two weeks ago and I won a card from them 2 days ago so needless to say I will still be a customer of theirs.


I think at this point this thread has become a soapbox thread with Cortney and his way of outing Brent for how he feels. As much as I like reality TV, maybe a new thread should start on that theme.

[Neal]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I think Cortney and Brent had a very good friendship which benefited both of them for many years. Sorry, it has gone south as hate and love both use the same part of the brain.

Cortney, I have never met you, or spoke to you. All I can go off from are your postings on this one thread. I like hearing the perspective from a buyer of high money cards in "PSA" holders where you seem to buy and sell these cards like commodities. my hunch isyourreally good at what you do and it's rare you have a bad deal. You remind me of one of the Hunt brothers back in the late 70s/80s.
Upon the rare impulse I have to buy a 25k card or higher in a PSA holder, rest assured I will attempt to win it as a snipe or a late night bid. My suspicions were dead on, that some people like to buy these cards like Apple shares.

PWCC I have always supported with positive post in recent years. Sorry you had a relationship go south from a large consignor. However, everything happens for a reason and I'm sure other future consigners will pick up the slack on the consignment front. I have said it before and I'll say it again. I think PWCC runs a professional operation and I'm very impressed with their market dominance in Ebay. I have spoke to Brent before both on the phone and in person at the National. It's safe to say I like him and support him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Betsy has returned emails to me when I was in communication with them and she was very professional and courteous as well. I won 8 cards from them two weeks ago and I won a card from them 2 days ago so needless to say I will still be a customer of theirs.


I think at this point this thread has become a soapbox thread with Cortney and his way of outing Brent for how he feels. As much as I like reality TV, maybe a new thread should start on that theme.

Has PWCC's customer service or quality of consignments been questioned? I do not feel like reading this whole thing

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Neal

Has PWCC's customer service or quality of consignments been questioned? I do not feel like reading this whole thing

Not that I have read. I'm just posting my opinion and putting a lighter tone on it.

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There is a lot of upside to TPG, but the inevitable downside is that they are going to miss a certain amount of highly-skilled card doctoring. There are people out there who are just really good at what they do, and they put a lot more effort into it than TPGs have the time or resources to always detect. It's like PEDs, the masking technology usually runs ahead of the detection technology. What I find interesting and somewhat discouraging is that so many people, particularly high end collectors, seem indifferent to that, and care only about the flip.

Great points Peter.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by nrm1977

On a related side note, I strongly feel those cards mentioned are just the "tip of the iceberg" of the whole grading industry. I recall reading a section in the book Mint Condition about the card "Doctor". In which he sent in cards that he "worked" on to the grading companies without detection. Granted, from what I remember those cards he sent in aren't in circulation. Though, if one guy can do it, I'm sure many others can as well.

With that said, I do feel at some point, the grading market might come "crashing" down to a certain degree. Whether it be, some government agency stepping in (with the amount of money being exchanged for these high dollar cards, I'm sure "they're" watching) or people just flat out losing faith in a 3rd parties opinion.

Lastly, I've never sent a card in for grading (been collecting 30ish plus years), I do in fact buy graded cards online to help reduce the risk of me buying a counterfeit, altered card. With the countless stories I've seen or heard about over the years, I cannot put too much faith in a 3rd party opinion on high dollar sports card. Hell, PSA was founded on a trimmed Wagner. Yes, it does help reduce my risk of receiving a counterfeit or altered card when buying online. No way in hell am I paying $10k for a card that you can buy raw for $600 just because of some guys opinion at a grading company. More power to anyone that feels comfortable buying a $50k sports card based on someone's opinion of the condition.

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

[nrm1977]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I do think we would also be at more risk buying altered cards if everything was 'raw' . So many disputes as to what is Mint and Near Mint as well that do not exist now with the graded cards. Basically we would have 4000 Battlefield type sellers out there with high number of returns and negative feedback. Yes the great sellers with great reputation shoudl do well but thats how it is now as time goes on.

Just too many bad situations with no third party graders for anyone to think the third party grading will go away

I do agree with you. The grading companies do help reduce the risk of getting an altered card. Just way too much faith is put into the "flip" on high end cards.