Hey, pennant guys

[thetahat]

The six biggest mysteries of the universe, in order ...

6. Is there life on other planets?
5. Why do the Tigers have, by far, the most attractive looking vintage pennants? (No other team is close.)
4. Does God exist?
3. Does a Phillies stadium pennant exist?
2. Is there life after death?
1. Was the pennant artist immediately fired after designing this Joe D pennant?

[YankeeFan]

Regarding "The six biggest mysteries of the universe, in order ..."

I would attempt a reply to a few of those, but I'd be breaking the rules.
So, I'll just say this about the #1 mystery: I hope he\she wasn't fired. I really like that pennant.

Enjoyed your creative post!

[jsage]

I also think the Joe D Pennant is excellent.
Jerry Sage

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by jsage

I also think the Joe D Pennant is excellent.
Jerry Sage

Nice display Jerry

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by jsage

I also think the Joe D Pennant is excellent.
Jerry Sage

It's a great pennant! Very attractive. But why is he hitting lefty?

[jsage]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

Nice display Jerry

Jason - Thanks
Cut off Willie Mays pennant in original photo.

[YankeeFan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

It's a great pennant! Very attractive. But why is he hitting lefty?

Good point! I didn't even notice that.

[thetahat]

I have seen similar style pennants of Jackie, Larry Doby, Satchel Paige, and Luke Easter. Anyone know of others like these? They are very, very cool.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Please forgive the intrusion into this awesome thread, but I am in the process of reading through it. I have about a year and a half to go, but I wanted to say what a mind-blowing thread this is! The quality of the vintage pennants, especially the colors and logos, is so incredible! The modern production stuff pales in comparison. I don't know how I have been in the hobby this long without having gone down this road. Frankly, I am a bit jealous. I have seen some really neat framed jobs so far. Do you frame your own? In most cases the frames look roomy enough so that it wouldn't be too hard to do. Please keep posting these beauties. I hope to purchase a few this year.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Please forgive the intrusion into this awesome thread, but I am in the process of reading through it. I have about a year and a half to go, but I wanted to say what a mind-blowing thread this is! The quality of the vintage pennants, especially the colors and logos, is so incredible! The modern production stuff pales in comparison. I don't know how I have been in the hobby this long without having gone down this road. Frankly, I am a bit jealous. I have seen some really neat framed jobs so far. Do you frame your own? In most cases the frames look roomy enough so that it wouldn't be too hard to do. Please keep posting these beauties. I hope to purchase a few this year.

Glad you like this thread, Robert. I am one of the "pennant guys." Not the most knowledgeable and not with the best collection, but I am pretty well versed in Giants pennants. One thing that fascinates me about pennants is their evolution and, in some cases, the near impossibility of finding certain exmples...examples that SEEM like they shouldn't be impossible. I'll take this oppurtunity to post a few of my "most wanted." In order of pictures posted, I have seen these pennants offered for sale this many times: once, once, a couple of times, once, once (a unique variation of a more common series), never, never.

[perezfan]

LOVE (and wish I had) that Dodgers/Giants pennant from 1958. What a beauty!

I can certainly see why that's rare, but others remain a mystery. As for the White 1962 Giants Champs Pennant with the rivets.... the 1961 Reds version is one of the most plentiful on Ebay. I think there were 7 or 8 nice ones, last time I looked. So did they just make far fewer the following year (in '62?)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1961...wAAOSwMtxXv2Hl

There are (maybe) one of these Giants versions for every 100 Reds.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

The Reds and Giants pennants are attractive. I can see why you like them. I will be looking for St. Louis Cardinals and San Diego Chargers when I start my pennant purchases. When it comes to pennants from say the '40s to the '60s, how picky are you guys regarding condition? Do you avoid pinholes, or are they acceptable? I realize large holes, rips, missing tips should be avoided when possible, but how fine do you generally get?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[mjkm90]

Pin holes are acceptable and almost unavoidable in pennant collecting. As long as the holes aren't elongated or so numerous at the tip that it has practically disintegrated they are ok. There are pennants without them, but I would not pass up an otherwise nice pennant due to some small pin holes. Stains (large or obvious) and trimmed pennants are my personal no-no's with regard to pennant purchases.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by perezfan

LOVE (and wish I had) that Dodgers/Giants pennant from 1958. What a beauty!

I don't understand why it's as rare as it it....there were nearly 30,000 excited people at that game who, presumably, knew they were attending a historic event and who, you would think, would want to pick up a souvenir (assuming the pennant was sold at Seals Stadium).

The grey pennant is not particularly attractive and is a variation of the one pictured below but I've seen it ONCE.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by mjkm90

Pin holes are acceptable and almost unavoidable in pennant collecting. As long as the holes aren't elongated or so numerous at the tip that it has practically disintegrated they are ok. There are pennants without them, but I would not pass up an otherwise nice pennant due to some small pin holes. Stains (large or obvious) and trimmed pennants are my personal no-no's with regard to pennant purchases.

Awesome! Thanks very much for the feedback. That helps to know.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[perezfan]

I feel about the same as Mike regarding condition. If the pinhole has extended (torn) all the way to the pennant's border, thus causing a slit, I am out.

The other deal-killer for me is ink writing on the pennant. I can't tell you how many more I would've bought, if not for some ink notation or former owners name written on the front. My eye is immediately drawn to that, rather than to the pennant itself.

I can forgive writing on the back side, and pinholes are never an issue.... your searches would become nearly impossible if you can't look past those!

Have fun, and best of luck!

[aelefson]

This thread is always great to look through! I bought these four at an antique show in NH for a pretty good deal. They are in incredible condition and I wish they were full sized ones.

Alan

[Fballguy]

Pin holes don't bother me. Missing tassels are fine by me. The tip is key for me. Missing tip is most likely a deal killer. Blunt/ripped tips annoy me too but depending on the scarcity of the pennant and degree of damage may be overlooked.

For very rare pennants I can overlook minor staining. Writing not so much.

[thetahat]

I prefer them as pristine as possible, purely for the potential resale value. At some point, even if it a willed donation after I take a dirt nap, I want them to be worth something. But since I am primarily into the decorative nature of the pennants, I forgive a few flaws. Tassels? Bottom pair missing ... okay. Top pair ... no shot. Just looks funny IMO. Even a blunted tip doesn't kill me. Stains and fading do.

Funny thing about the pennant tips, though ... absolutely convinced that sometimes, some of the 50s and 60s pennants where produced with a tip that was slightly squared. I have a '55 Dodger "crown" pennant that is a full 30" and barely fits in the holder, yet the tip is a little squared off. I'm certain they made it as such - not so much by design (i.e. deliberately), only that it came out of the factory that way.

Which reminds me of someone currently selling a '59 White Sox picture "pennant" in eBay. That's how it is described. One tiny flaw, though ... it is missing the pennant! (Go look.)

[perezfan]

Yes, I agree....

Many of the vintage pennants were made with a blunt tip. I still have a few from childhood that are untouched, and know that they were made that way.

The deal-killer for me is when the pennant was ripped off the wall, and the tip remained under the thumb tack. The tell-tale sign is a concave end and about an inch missing from the tip. You actually see this a lot... I guess when the kids moved out, their Moms had little regard for those pennants left behind.

[Fballguy]

What about "off center" pennants? Not sure if they're common with baseball but I see quite a few with football. The graphic is closer to the bottom edge than the top or vice versa. I can never tell if it's a manufacturing error or if one edge was trimmed to create a false point at the tip. This is a deal killer for me because I never know if the pennant has been altered.

[thetahat]

I think the best way to tell if it is trimmed is when the angle of the tip corner seems too wide. That will happen unless it was trimmed all the way to the wide end, in which case the stitching will often reveal it. This all goes out the window if it is an Ad Flag pennant because they hired a 12 year old to cut the pennant sheets with scissors from art class.

[thetahat]

Mark, the flip side is when a pennant is too nice ... too pristine ... that's also scary. It can signal a big find somewhere. When my pennant addiction first started I was just getting 70s and 80s pennants. Then I went to a sale at Mitchell and Ness which is located near me in Philly ... bought a bunch of repros. But in the store they displayed (not for sale) some vintage pennants that just looked better. And then I got into eBay.

So anyway ... My first pre-'69 pennant was the Dodgers Orioles WS pennant from '66. I was so excited because it was flawless. What a deal I got. Then I saw another ... and another ... and another. Clearly someone had or found a box of them. Same thing with a batch of 60s 3/4 size football pennants, mints of these were once all over the place.

That's why a little wear adds some chard and comfort. And please tell me that, like me, you smell them. Or at least tell me that I am not insane.

[Fballguy]

That is funny. One of the first things I do when I add a pennant to my collection is smell it. I tell myself I'm doing it to make sure it doesn't smell like smoke but I actually like the "old pennant" smell. I think it's an artifact of my old card collecting days. I like the way old football cards smell. I still smell them from time to time when nobody is looking. LOL

[Huck]

Originally Posted by Fballguy

That is funny. One of the first things I do when I add a pennant to my collection is smell it. I tell myself I'm doing it to make sure it doesn't smell like smoke but I actually like the "old pennant" smell. I think it's an artifact of my old card collecting days. I like the way old football cards smell. I still smell them from time to time when nobody is looking. LOL

Lol.

[perezfan]

I've been known to smell a pennant or two as well. I guess I've been lucky and can't recall any that wreaked of smoke.

My biggest issue with pennants (especially from ebay) isn't smoke, but pet hair. Often the pennant will arrive with cat hair intertwined into the felt. I used to try to pick it out with my fingers or tweezers, but now just use scotch tape. Sometimes you take off a tiny bit of felt (actually more like peach fuzz) with the tape, but the process goes so much quicker.

As for off-centering... yes, it bugs me too. I can usually detect alteration, but if its worse than "60/40" centering, I tend to pass on it (unless it's something I'll never see again). It's just too distracting otherwise.

If a pennant has been cut/altered, the edge or border will look different in that area. Typically it will have a sharper looking or more squared-off cut. Natural vintage borders will typically have softer, more muted edges. Just another skill you acquire after 25 years of doing this... utterly useless to 99.9% of the population!

[perezfan]

This listing was interesting, and reveals a bit about the manufacturing process, and available options, back in the day. The Keezer tag attached to the pennant provides some great insight...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1962-HOUSTON...vip=true&rt=nc

Available "Finish" options included Keko-Knap and Kemco. This Colt .45s Pennant was "Kemco", whatever that is (I think it probably relates to the graphics portion).

Available "Background" options included "All Wool Athletic Felt", "Wool Felt", "Cotton Felt", and "Tackle Twill". I believe Tackle Twill is what we often call the "Cloth" pennants (with the tightly compressed individual threads). This Colt .45s Pennant is Wool Felt, which is perhaps my favorite material for vintage pennants.

Has anyone ever seen this Keezer variation before? This one is obviously a salesman's sample, and could well be a pennant that never even made it to market. Perhaps a one-of-a-kind prototype. I was the underbidder... Did anyone here win it?

[thetahat]

Wow I missed this one ... but yes, great insight. Zooming in it looks to me like a "cloth" pennant, i.e. the limp kind that frays on the edges with age (loose strands). The folds in the pennant suggest that, as does the stain on the top edge. Also you can tell the white strip is not felt, but kinda like the feel of a cotton dress shirt. Looks to me very similar in material and design to an Astros pennant I have here.

[thetahat]

Forgot to attach

[Fballguy]

I was watching that one, along with the Sallies, Newark Eagles and New York Yanks football pennant from the same seller. I got the Yanks. Wanted to bid on all four but controlled myself. I've got a wedding coming up and all the expenses that go along with it.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Wow I missed this one ... but yes, great insight. Zooming in it looks to me like a "cloth" pennant, i.e. the limp kind that frays on the edges with age (loose strands). The folds in the pennant suggest that, as does the stain on the top edge. Also you can tell the white strip is not felt, but kinda like the feel of a cotton dress shirt. Looks to me very similar in material and design to an Astros pennant I have here.

Yeah, I guess it probably is a cloth pennant.... I couldn't see any of the typical loose/frayed edge threads, but after zooming in on it, I think you're right. The material looks thinner than at first glance.

So I wonder what a "Tackle Twill" Pennant looks like.

[thetahat]

I love the cloth pennants. When you are lucky enough to get a good one with no fading or fraying, or with cracked print ... the '55 Dodger scroll is my very favorite. Never have seen a felt version. In the late 60s, including some 1969 trademarked pennants, the cloth pennants were still cloth but a little less limp, they actually have a really good feel to them. The white Pilots pennant falls in this category.

I think all the 60s photo pennants were cloth ...

[WillowGrove]

I thought I'd push this great thread back to the top with this Dodgers pennant I just picked up. (sorry if I outbid anyone here). It's only the third pennant I own but I just got a kick of the names jammed into the bunting.

Not the best design but that's why I like it.

Interesting to note, maybe just to me, but there are 25 players listed however in 1951 the Dodgers (and all teams I assume) could break camp with 26 players and had 30-days to get down to 25 man. They broke camp with an Earl Mosser who was sent down after 30 days.

Not too surprising as he was the last man to make the team but the pennant maker guessed right. Anyway, by 6/1 Van Cuyk was sent down, 6/8 Tommy Brown was dealt and then 6/15 4 more players were dealt.

So I don't know about typical pennant runs, or who made this particular style - but after a third of the season, this pennant was about 25% incorrect.

Are the pennants with player's names usually done at the beginning of the season or more for post season? Or Both?

Anyway - hope you like.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Wow I missed this one ... but yes, great insight. Zooming in it looks to me like a "cloth" pennant, i.e. the limp kind that frays on the edges with age (loose strands). The folds in the pennant suggest that, as does the stain on the top edge. Also you can tell the white strip is not felt, but kinda like the feel of a cotton dress shirt. Looks to me very similar in material and design to an Astros pennant I have here.

FWIW, I have to completely disagree. My ipad has nearly infinite zooming and that pennant looks like felt (as labeled) to me. I know what you're talking about when you say "cloth" and this doesn't look like that to me. Just my two cents...

[mjkm90]

Fantastic Dodgers pennant Peter

Most of the roster pennants I have seen were based on the playoff roster or the names of note from the previous season.

[Bumpus Jones]

Neat pennant Peter. Congrats!

[thetahat]

Very cool pennant, Peter! Interestingly just this morning I noticed that one of my Phillies team picture pennants from the 60s had a pic and roster from spring training and it was described as such.

[bigfish]

New arrival..,,

[WillowGrove]

Nice Toby.

Thanks on the Bklyn pennant guys. So should I assume that pennants with the full roster are equally done for Opening Day as they are for the post season? It's just funny to me to put the effort into making a pennant that will change soon after the season starts.

Thanks again.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Peter,
Most pennants with names on them or scroll style pennants were done for the post season. There are plenty of pennants that are like the Brooklyn version you show, but most commemorate an achievement or specific player. The "world champs" pennants were often done after the season then sold the next season as well. On photo pennants not commemorating a championship many of them were done in the pre season and some of the photos were taken at spring training. Others sometime use photos from the previous year. No rhyme or reason. Nice pennant by the way. Take care, Jason

[WillowGrove]

Gotcha Jason. And much thanks.

[Fballguy]

Just picked this one up cheap, as most college pennants are...Was wondering if anyone had any ideas on age. It's soft felt. Guessing 1950s...but the shape of the football looked a little bloated. Maybe earlier?

The bottom two tassels are cut short, while the top two are intact. Curious what others approach to damaged tassels is? Do you leave as is. Do you remove altogether? To me, tassels do nothing to increase my interest in a pennant...but I tend to leave them as is, no matter how jacked up they are. What do others do?

[perezfan]

I like to leave the tassels as-is. Those are not too bad, and the body of the pennant is spectacular. Great/unusual design, and much like an oversized Tacoma Tigers Teens pennant that was posted here years ago.

That looks like a melon ball to me, and I think this one could be as early as the 1920s... but more likely the 30s or early 40s. Perhaps someone here can chime in with a more specific timeline. Sometimes you get lucky, and find a program or yearbook with an identical design (which helps date the pennant).

Wonderful acquisition... congrats!

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I like to leave the tassels as-is. Those are not too bad, and the body of the pennant is spectacular. Great/unusual design, and much like an oversized Tacoma Tigers Teens pennant that was posted here years ago.

That looks like a melon ball to me, and I think this one could be as early as the 1920s... but more likely the 30s or early 40s. Perhaps someone here can chime in with a more specific timeline. Sometimes you get lucky, and find a program or yearbook with an identical design (which helps date the pennant).

Wonderful acquisition... congrats!

Mark, I think you refer to this one?

[vintagesportscollector]

Great Princeton pennant. I haven't seen that one before, but looks like a 1920s design.

RE the Tacoma pennant, I recall the discussion years ago on that. Wasn't there discussion about if it was even a baseball pennant?

[perezfan]

I forgot how beautiful that Tacoma Pennant was. I didn't know you had that one, Greg.... looks great on your wall.

Yes, there were some people here who claimed that it was not a baseball pennant. A few felt it was a Tacoma Zoo pennant.

I personally believe it's a Tacoma Tigers Baseball pennant, and don't recall ever seeing an oversized Zoo pennant like that. A well-renowned PCL Collector (and net54 Board Member) has one of these with some sort of provenance, and is confident of its origin. Mears has also sold one of these as a Tacoma Tigers Pennant. Either way, it's a true work of art

[Gusturd]

Hi team!

Spent my Saturday at the swap meet and found this beauty. Don't know much about pendants and primarily a baseball guy (cards and such) but figured with the Super Bowl being this Sunday, now might be the time to invest a little dough on the Cardinals. The seller was asking for $50, but I talked him down to $40. Looks to be in pristine condition for it's age which I'm guessing probably dates back to the 1950s. Any ideas on age or value?

Thanks all.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Gusturd

Hi team!

Spent my Saturday at the swap meet and found this beauty. Don't know much about pendants and primarily a baseball guy (cards and such) but figured with the Super Bowl being this Sunday, now might be the time to invest a little dough on the Cardinals. The seller was asking for $50, but I talked him down to $40. Looks to be in pristine condition for it's age which I'm guessing probably dates back to the 1950s. Any ideas on age or value?

Thanks all.

It's no earlier than 1960 (first year of team) and if the NFL logo came into being on pennants like the MLB logo, you'd be looking more like 10 years after that.

[perezfan]

You can get into pennant collecting very inexpensively. If you are into the Cardinals, there are lots of nice variations that typically sell for under $50.

Here's an example of a neat looking one that recently sold for a mere $10...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-196...p2047675.l2557

And this one for just $12...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960s-Vintag...p2047675.l2557

The $10 one was mid '60s, and the $12 one was early '60s. It's an easy niche of the hobby to enter, and you'll find that your taste is likely to evolve pretty quickly.

As for your Cardinals Pennant (posted above), it's either very late '60s or early '70s. It looks like the tip portion is probably altered.... be on the lookout for alterations like this, as you collect them. There are enough available in this genre, that you shouldn't have any trouble finding EX - NRMT examples, like this one below...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-late...p2047675.l2557

Hope this is helpful!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Ditto to what Mark said