OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[z28jd]

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

[Moyni]

Tonight's announcement also makes these cards even cooler. The only two catchers elected on their first ballots.

[conor912]

This was a fun read...some interesting tidbits about the voting in the early days.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article...017-inductions

[triwak]

Not to veer too far OT, but has anyone found anything card-wise of John Schuerholz yet? Selig is easy.

[BeanTown]

Great choices for the HOF and those players have some hard minor league cards to collect. Cape Cod for Bagwell. Vladimir is a great player who was the best bad ball hitter to ever play! Plus he used to live with his Mom and Brother early in when he played in Montreal. A great guy and class act. Chipper is a first ballot HOFer and loyal to his team. Some of his off field choices he made while being married were not the best, but a great guy otherwise. He loves to hunt and enjoys his kids not too mention his Hooters wife as that was one of his consequences he made long ago. Lol.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Vladimir is a great player who was the best bad ball hitter to ever play!

Best I've seen probably, but I've read some crazy things about Lajoie.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by triwak

Not to veer too far OT, but has anyone found anything card-wise of John Schuerholz yet? Selig is easy.

I had a signed team issue postcard/smaller photo from his days with the Royals.

Tom C

[seanofjapan]

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

[Gary Dunaier]

Keeping it card-related, Raines joins a select group: members of the Baseball Hall of Fame whose first Topps card was a multi-player rookie card.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

His OBP was .385 - 135th all-time. Not exactly through the roof.

Meanwhile, Edgar Martinez - with his .418 OBP (21st all-time) and 147 OPS+ - still waits.

[Joshchisox08]

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Stampsfan

+1

Maybe the best leadoff hitter ever outside of Ricky Henderson. OBP is through the roof.

Hoping he goes in with an Expos cap.

13 years in Montreal vs 5 in Chi-town. I don't think there will be any doubt he'll go in with an Expo cap.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by seanofjapan

Really glad to see Raines finally getting in, its ridiculous that he had to wait until his last shot.

Its a bit bittersweet, he is probably the last guy who will go in as an Expo (except maybe Vladi, but he might go in as an Angel). Which is sort of the last big MLB related thing we had to look forward too that involved the team.

Well, until Montreal gets a new team at least.

I think the 80's MLB drug scandal (cocaine) hurt Raines.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/hof07/column...crasnick_jerry

[ronniehatesjazz]

Originally Posted by biohazard

I think the 80's MLB drug scandal (cocaine) hurt Raines.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/hof07/column...crasnick_jerry

Always found his nickname "Rock" to be funny in regards to this lol. Glad to see him get in though. Well deserved for an underrated player.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

From what I gather from talk radio, for some reporters what defines a PED user is if the player confessed or was mentioned in any report. If that is the case the reporter votes "no". The evidence has to be more than, "look at how much bigger he is." There has to be some evidence no matter how weak. Some say there already is a PED user in the HOF. It would be interesting to see a player who is voted in, is handed his plaque and months later reveals he was a PED user.

As the older members of the BBWAA die off the known PED users with HOF credentials will be inducted.

[bxb]

I expected Trevor Hoffman to get in this time.

Over 600 saves! I thought it was his year.

[glynparson]

I THINK ITS A JOKE TO PUT PUDGE,PIAZZA,BIGGIO,AND BAGWELL IN BEFORE BONDS AND CLEMENS. OOPs didn't mean to caps lock. I am as confident they all were juicers. Id vote for all of them but think its funny that we seem to be ok with juicers unless you were too good and broke records see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.

[clydepepper]

All four now HOFers:

Piazza and Griffey - Class of 2016

Bagwell - Class of 2017

Bagwell and Thomas - both born 5/27/1968 & both 1994 MVPs

pretty cool...

Scan.jpg

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I THINK ITS A JOKE TO PUT PUDGE,PIAZZA,BIGGIO,AND BAGWELL IN BEFORE BONDS AND CLEMENS. OOPs didn't mean to caps lock. I am as confident they all were juicers. Id vote for all of them but think its funny that we seem to be ok with juicers unless you were too good and broke records see McGwire, Sosa, Bonds.

I think the biggest test will be A-Rod.

If he gets in then .....................................

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by biohazard

From what I gather from talk radio, for some reporters what defines a PED user is if the player confessed or was mentioned in any report. If that is the case the reporter votes "no". The evidence has to be more than, "look at how much bigger he is." There has to be some evidence no matter how weak. Some say there already is a PED user in the HOF. It would be interesting to see a player who is voted in, is handed his plaque and months later reveals he was a PED user.

As the older members of the BBWAA die off the known PED users with HOF credentials will be inducted.

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games. The interviewer was doing everything he could to change the subject ASAP. Then some how it was/has never been brought up again.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games. The interviewer was doing everything he could to change the subject ASAP. Then some how it was/has never been brought up again.

Funny the way that works. What' sad is Manny was a hundred times the hitter Fat Sloppy is and he'll get in no problem. The biggest mouth ever for someone who failed a drug test. Boston writers even trash that guy, yet he appears to be getting a free pass for god knows what reason.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by 90feetaway

Bagwell and Raines not HOF material

Just my opinion. Neither dominated the sport. Pudge was dominant at catcher which is a thin position. I think Vlad deserves a spot.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Kind of surprised how easily Bagwell got in. Non of his numbers are anything crazy. Meanwhile Baines, Edgar, and McGriff just sit there and rot.

I don't understand where they anti-bagwell sentiments come from. Of those on the ballot he ranked 4th for WAR7 behind Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling.

With WAR being a cumulative number (more years the higher it can go), I tend to look at WAR average for their playing. He ranks 3rd in this behind Bonds and Clemens.

Black Ink measures how much you lead in certain stats. His Black Ink is 24, this is a per year average of 1.6, 4th behind Bonds, Clemens, and IRod.

His Gray Ink, a stat to measure his top 10 performances is at 157 with his per year average ranking him 4th behind Bonds, Mussina, and IROD.

Considering there was no evidence of PED, just speculation based on size, he seems to be the only one worthy for the anti-ped voters.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro Martinez did it last year. I seen an interview with him shortly after being elected. He talked about doing PED's with Manny Ramirez before games.

Do you have a link? I don't recall Pedro ever admitting to doing PEDs ...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Do you have a link? I don't recall Pedro ever admitting to doing PEDs ...

No I don't and it seems like stuff like that has a weird way of disappearing. I did find this link but the actual video is also no longer available. The interview I seen was at the beginning of a sporting event and he was the guest. It was also in the time frame of him trying to peddle his book. In the interview I saw he also told the story of the Viagra crushed up in a drink but added there was another PED in it that Manny would bring back from the Dominican Republic.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pe...s-with-viagra/

[Bruinsfan94]

Originally Posted by bnorth

No I don't and it seems like stuff like that has a weird way of disappearing. I did find this link but the actual video is also no longer available. The interview I seen was at the beginning of a sporting event and he was the guest. It was also in the time frame of him trying to peddle his book. In the interview I saw he also told the story of the Viagra crushed up in a drink but added there was another PED in it that Manny would bring back from the Dominican Republic.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/pe...s-with-viagra/

Yep giant conspiracy to protect Pedro. Of course you have no link.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Bruinsfan94

Yep giant conspiracy to protect Pedro. Of course you have no link.

Why would I have a link to a interview I seen on live TV when Pedro was trying to sell a book?

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

I completely agree with this..it's either all or none. But we are talking about the BBWAA. I believe it was 9 of them in 1982 that didn't think Hank Aaron was a first ballot hall of famer.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

+1

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by z28jd

I have no problem with Rodriguez getting in, but he was clearly a PED guy. My problem is the double standard that allows the leader of the era, Bud "I did nothing except collect a seven-figure salary until congress forced it, then took all of the credit" Selig, and a known PED user to go in on the first ballot, but Bonds and Clemens got passed up again.

Rodriguez was named in Canseco's book along with everyone else who was found guilty. He came back looking like a bobblehead the first year they started testing and his power dropped, plus he refused to answer questions on PED's. Others who covered the Rangers also either agreed with Canseco's accusation of him, or had their own suspicions before the book.

These voters are showing a ridiculous bias towards players they didn't like as players, or they just didn't know any better so they go with the masses. MLB made certain players scapegoats and other players skated with no issues. I doubt Mark McGwire is any more guilty than Rodriguez, but he will likely never get in the Hall of Fame because he was a face of the era.

Basically, voters just need to be consistent. You either vote in the PED players or you don't, but you don't pick and choose the ones you want in based on spite.

Agree 100%, great post.