OT - New Hall of Famers: Bagwell, Raines and Ivan Rodriguez

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'm in the same boat re: relievers. The only relief pitcher I watched regularly that I would say is hall of fame material was Mariano, and that's coming from a modern day Yankee hater. Never watched Hoffman enough but if you are going to throw number of saves in my face I'm unimpressed.

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

[Moyni]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

This is a joke right? I hate the Yankees, but there is zero doubt that Rivera is heads and shoulders more worthy that Hoffman.

BTW, I think Hoffman should be in too.

[packs]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by packs

Seriously? Have you looked at Rivera's numbers in the post season? Are you aware that he was as close to an automatic win as there has ever been in baseball? The guy threw one pitch. Every batter he ever faced knew it was coming. None of them could hit it. That's greatness.

There is a commercial stating more people have walked on the moon than scored against Rivera in the post-season lol.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

How does Hoffy's post-season record match up to this?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/201...ees-postseason

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, and you'll probably be leading the cheering section when Rivera goes in 1st time / 1st ballot. Other than 50 more saves than Hoffman and being a Yankee vs a Pudre, what makes him more HOF worthy than Hoffy if you take away the saves?

What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).


I have an extremely high standard for closers to be in the HOF. Because they pitch so little - sometimes as little as 50 innings - they had better be incredibly dominant in those innings to be worthy of the Hall. Rivera was. Hoffman wasn't. If we're looking for an NL reliever from Hoffman's time to put in the Hall, look at Billy Wagner. He was a LOT better.

[Tabe]

Put me also in the camp wondering why Raines got in. To me, nothing about his career screams "great". He had a nice, long productive career but great?

OBP? 135th all-time.

2600 hits in 23 seasons - 110 a year. Not great.

No power.

Career OPS+ of 123. Not great.

Terrible defense even by the low standards of LF.

How many great seasons did he have? 3? Maybe less. His best season was 1987 when he hit .330 with 18 HRs and an OPS of .955, 6th in the NL.

Honestly, his whole case is "he stole a lot of bases!" He finished with 808, 5th all-time. And that's nice and all - except we know that stolen bases aren't all that important.

So what are we left with? A terrible defensive LF who stole a lot of bases, got on base at a decent (but not great) rate and had little power.

That sure doesn't sound like a HOFer to me.

[pclpads]

[QUOTE=Tabe;1622636]What makes him more worthy? Seriously?

One guy's ERA+ was 205. The other's was 141.

One guy had 11 seasons with an ERA under 2.00. The other had 2.

One guy is the best reliever in postseason history (0.70 ERA in 141 IP). The other guy was below average for a reliever (3.46 ERA).

Yeah, seriously! Hoffy is like Lee Smith, who killed it for bad ball clubs ending with 478 saves. Doesn't get a sniff for HOF. Like Smith, Hoffy killed it for lousy Pudres teams - minus the '98 WS - with, like Smith, a bunch of scrubs supporting him. That makes what Hoffy and Smith accomplished as remarkable as Rivera and all his WS stuff with much better support than Hoffy or Smith ever had.

[alanu]

I'm glad Raines got in.

Kind of surprised with Bagwell and Pudge with their PED suspicions.

I remember Bagwell shrinking considerably after his injury that caused him to retire.

[irv]

There is no doubt the HOF is flawed, but just look at the differences of opinions in this thread alone.

I, for one have griped about them and the fact so many greats have been left out (Minoso) and so many undeserving's have made it in, but where do you draw the line who makes and who doesn't?

I know Raines' numbers don't scream a shoe-in, but if there are worse players in the hall, how do you leave him, and other's out?

If we all had to pick 3-5 players who should be in and 3-5 who shouldn't, we'd all come up with different players.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by pclpads

Yeah, seriously! Hoffy is like Lee Smith, who killed it for bad ball clubs ending with 478 saves. Doesn't get a sniff for HOF. Like Smith, Hoffy killed it for lousy Pudres teams - minus the '98 WS - with, like Smith, a bunch of scrubs supporting him. That makes what Hoffy and Smith accomplished as remarkable as Rivera and all his WS stuff with much better support than Hoffy or Smith ever had.

Or it could just be that Hoffman wasn't anywhere near as good. That's sure what the numbers say.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Or it could just be that Hoffman wasn't anywhere near as good. That's sure what the numbers say.

ROFLMAO!

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Or it could just be that Hoffman wasn't anywhere near as good. That's sure what the numbers say.

No, he wasn't as good, BUT, if you look at the top 10 of relief WAR all time Hoffman is 3rd in far less innings than #4 and 5 (Fingers, Lee Smith)

Billy Wagner was better on rate stats than Rivera (K/9 BB/9 and played far less innings because he chose to retire young, he has HOF stats too.

I agree that relievers should be held to a high standard, but adding Hoffman and Wagner would maintain a high standard.