Is "market pushing" ethical or not?

[ullmandds]

thats what happens Frank when I talk into the phone at the pool!!!!

[glynparson]

The Bruces were ahead of the curve would love for Mr. Dorskind to be around to hear his perspective on this current situation. He loved his cards but also viewed them as investment commodities. As for Peter's question seems immoral but if they are willing to pay should they win I am not sure it can be considered illegal. I mean there have been times billionaires have proped up their stocks and millionaire artists bought tons of their albums or tickets to their movies to prop up numbers. IF the transactions go thru I see that it is immoral but I would have real problem legally punishing people for this type of behavior. After all it seems like they are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I deliberately framed the question as one of ethics not legality because, with due respect, there are few things less productive than a lot of non-lawyers giving opinions about what the law should be. See Kevin Quinn pontificating on class actions for example.

I think my feelings about it would be the same whether or not it's illegal. To me, it's artificially and intentionally driving up prices. And it's happening every day, which means it can have an enormous impact.

[glynparson]

an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

an attempt to state what i feel the law should be and hell I'm in court enough i might as well be a lawyer. unfortunate nature of my business. Lol

LOL. That came out harsher than I intended, my point more broadly is that I don't see whether or not this practice is illegal as being the issue. Let's assume for the sake of argument it is legal, although I am not saying it is -- that doesn't make it ethical.

[glynparson]

I agree i think it is unethical or immoral behavior.

[Shoebox]

I think it's unethical but marginally so in any one instance. Frequency and volume can exacerbate it into more.

[bnorth]

I believe it is very unethical and immoral when done to card(s) I am looking to buy. Now if I am selling it is perfectly fine.

[egbeachley]

There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

But, if your intention is to "protect your investment", then it also won't work. If prices of "your card" that you are trying to protect have gone up, you won't have bid enough and it doesn't matter since it is up. If it has gone down, all you will do it buy another card at a price higher than anyone else which means that if you were to sell it immediately you will lose money.

On a similar note, I was in a situation several years ago where I was bidding strong on cards from 4-5 different 1880's non-sports sets. I was consistently losing to the same collector - someone with loads of cash. It got to the point where I knew that if I bid $50, he would win it for $51. But if I didn't bid he would win it for $20. I wouldn't bid for a week, see how low they went for, think they went low and try again to win a few but then lose anyway. Frustrating. Wrote about it on the Net54 Non-Sports Card Forum. Someone finally responded that I controlled the market for these sets. Interesting thought.

Much of what the government considered shill bidding in Mastro was NOT done with any knowledge of the high bids. Read the court papers. It was people bidding on their own lots trying to push up prices but willing to buy them back if they won.

[botn]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

That is not accurate. You should read my earlier post on this. In the Mastro case the government would consider your example as shill bidding. Having knowledge of the high bid is not a requirement for being a shill bidder.

[pokerplyr80]

I don't see it as unethical if the bidder is willing and able to buy the card for his bid. I would have a problem with someone bidding it up over another bidder's max and then retracting, or with two more more people colluding to artificially inflate prices.