Is "market pushing" ethical or not?

[botn]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

There should be no comparison to the Mastro shill bidding. While the intent there was also to raise the price, bidding was done with knowledge of the high bid amount. So let's toss that thought aside.

As far as bidding some amount to raise the price, with no knowledge of the high bid, without intending to win, but paying if you do win, no retractions allowed........ I don't even think it is immoral or unethical.

That is not accurate. You should read my earlier post on this. In the Mastro case the government would consider your example as shill bidding. Having knowledge of the high bid is not a requirement for being a shill bidder.

[steve B]

To this laymans view, if it's illegal it's got a good chance of being unethical as well especially as a business plan.

(Sorry Peter, can't think of any other way to frame the argument well without resorting to laws )

If the card was a stock...........the manipulator might be in some trouble.

From Wikipedia as iffy a source as it may be,

" During the dot-com era, when stock-market fever was at its height and many people spent significant amounts of time on stock Internet message boards, a 15-year-old named Jonathan Lebed showed how easy it was to use the Internet to run a successful pump and dump. Lebed bought penny stocks and then promoted them on message boards, pointing at the price increase. When other investors bought the stock, Lebed sold his for a profit, leaving the other investors holding the bag. He came to the attention of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), which filed a civil suit against him alleging security manipulation. Lebed settled the charges by paying a fraction of his total gains. He neither admitted nor denied wrongdoing, but promised not to manipulate securities in the future."

And

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation


That being said, I can't recall ever hearing of anyone in any hobby field getting in trouble for that sort of thing. Collusive bidding to keep prices down ? Yes. Shilling items to benefit themselves directly? Yep. Jacking up prices of other people's stuff to eventually benefit them selves? Nope.

So, maybe indifference, or the authorities don't consider collectibles as investment commodities, or it hasn't been done on a large enough scale to require a law or to have an existing one applied. And who would be in charge anyway? I can't see the SEC claiming they have authority in collectibles markets.

Steve B

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by botn

That is not accurate. You should read my earlier post on this. In the Mastro case the government would consider your example as shill bidding. Having knowledge of the high bid is not a requirement for being a shill bidder.

I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.

[botn]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.

You might want to check your facts before you post...you are absolutely wrong. Happy to have a discussion with you once you get your facts straight.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by egbeachley

I think you are confused which is OK.

In every instance with the Mastro case there was a relationship with the bidder and the seller or Mastro (company). It has nothing to do with a random bidder seeing an auction of a card they own and thinking they will throw out a bid or two to "protect" their investment or grab a dupe.

You have completely changed the topic. Greg's point to you (and mine) was that your original claim that Mastro only involved cases where the bidding was done with knowledge of the high bids was wrong. He never said it involved random bidders that is a straw man.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Peter, your point is very solid and in fact I would not be surprised if that is what is actually happening. The bidding dozens of times at the minimum amount screams to me someone who A) doesn't really want to win the auction and B) wants to drive up the price. Initially, I just thought that type of bidding was due to cheap buyers, but considering everything that's going on in the high-end market, your argument has validity.

[Exhibitman]

Ethics are irrelevant. This is arms length commerce between strangers. There is legal and illegal. The rest is meaningless.

As long as you have the risk of paying if you win you aren't doing anything wrong.

I sometimes will bid into a card I have up to a point where I wouldn't mind owning a dupe. I suspect that is a lot of what people do when they bid into cards then stop short of the top.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

Peter, your point is very solid and in fact I would not be surprised if that is what is actually happening. The bidding dozens of times at the minimum amount screams to me someone who A) doesn't really want to win the auction and B) wants to drive up the price. Initially, I just thought that type of bidding was due to cheap buyers, but considering everything that's going on in the high-end market, your argument has validity.

To be clear, this IS actually happening, I am not speculating and if you read my post you can see at least one place where I am getting my information.

Ethics are irrelevant, interesting perspective.

[Iron Horse]

I feel it is unethical and should not be done. Even if they are willing to pay for the inflated bids that does not make it ok. Just because they have deep pockets and can afford to over pay for these card/s does not make it ok and it hurts the rest of us collectors who do not have $$$$.
These crazy prices have not only and affect on high end cards but i think we can see that even mid grade cards are influenced by these practices.
I hope this insanity will come to an end soon so the real collectors can continue to enjoy this great "Hobby".

[ALR-bishop]

Been collecting since 1957. With a couple of minor exceptions involving dupes, I do not sell. I have and still enjoy the hobby in all of it's evolutions The "hobby" is certainly different today then the 50s-70s, but I don't pine for the old days, and find it fascinating to watch it all unfold in the present, both the good and the bad. That's just me. I understand everyone has their own perspective