1954 Topps Aaron RC versus 1955 Topps Clemente RC

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemente has always been justly popular in the hobby, from some combination of his flair and charisma, untimely death, humanitarian efforts, and status as the first Latin (is that politically correct these days?) superstar.

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

[RobertC]

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." - Mickey Mantle

[esehombre]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As someone once said, you had a better chance of sneaking a sunrise past a rooster than sneaking a fastball by Hank Aaron.

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

[Neal]

Originally Posted by esehombre

I think that was a quote from Bob Feller in reference to Ted Williams (who would certainly know). Of course it fits Aaron just fine as well!

I think it was Curt Simmons regarding Aaron ....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Neal

I think it was Curt Simmons regarding Aaron ....

Yeah that's what I now recall Curt Simmons. Maybe he copied it from Feller who knows.

[Gr8Beldini]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

All quite true, although Aaron was objectively and demonstrably the better player--just check JAWs and runs created per 27 outs to league average. Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder. In JAWs (career wins above replacement plus 7-year peak wins above replacement divided by two, Aaron is the second best right fielder of all time, with 142.6 career WAR and 60.1 7-year peak WAR.. Clemente is the 6th best, with 94.5 and 54.3 respectively. In runs created per 27 outs taken against the league average, Aaron is over 180%, while Roberto is in the 140%-range. For the reasons Pete has stated, Clemente has the "mystique," which Aaron lacks, hence, with a similar supply, more demand, and more value (VALUE IS ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS in proportion to the demand for an item in relation to the available supply in a free market).

Larry

Aaron was a better player than Clemente; a better player than all but a fist full of players in MLB history. But nobody is debating "better player." Clemente is a God in the Hispanic community. Aaron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of following in any community. Clemente is revered in Pittsburgh... not-so-much Aaron in Milwaukee/Atlanta. Plus Clemente won 2 championships (owning 1971); died a heroic death; his rookie card is scarcer than Hank's... Hank was a great great player; Roberto was an iconic player that was great. There is more demand for "iconic" than for "great."

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

Clemente was a better fielder, but not nearly enough better to close the considerable offensive performance gap, and Aaron was a very good right fielder.

Aaron has a negative 4.8 defensive WAR. Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people. I think that really hurts the value of their cards.

[CW]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people.

I know I've read more than one instance where Mays was a prick, but I hadn't really heard any bad stories about Aaron. He was pretty sour when Bonds was surpassing his HR record, understandably so, but that's all the negative press I've heard on Hank.

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

[glynparson]

Clemente may not have listed for more but he was far easier to sell and high end cards commanded a far larger premium than Aaron cards did. From my experiences of doing countless major shows pre grading Clemente was in fact in far greater demand despite what was quoted in a magazine. In the early 90's Aaron, though not as surly as Mays, was considered by many who got his auto to be rude. from the responses i heard at shows.

[stargell1]

Originally Posted by CW

Did I miss some instances of Aaron being unpleasant to fans or the press?

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

[ALR-bishop]

That excerpt certainly proves...nothing

[Vintagevault13]

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Vintagevault13

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

110%.

duffle bags upon duffle bags of hate mail and death threats solely for being black.

[gomaz]

Thanks for all of the informative responses.

This post below really gave me the information I was looking for especially the bolded parts. I think those might be the key reasons why the Clemente commands more dollars. It seems like reverie is more important, in this case, than who was the better player, the card's known graded population, and the relative popularity of the two sets, all put together.

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

Aaron was a better player than Clemente; a better player than all but a fist full of players in MLB history. But nobody is debating "better player." Clemente is a God in the Hispanic community. Aaron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of following in any community. Clemente is revered in Pittsburgh... not-so-much Aaron in Milwaukee/Atlanta. Plus Clemente won 2 championships (owning 1971); died a heroic death; his rookie card is scarcer than Hank's... Hank was a great great player; Roberto was an iconic player that was great. There is more demand for "iconic" than for "great."

Originally Posted by RobertC

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." - Mickey Mantle

That says a lot right there that the Aaron may be undervalued.

Originally Posted by Vintagevault13

I have lived in Atlanta/NE Georgia my entire life and I honestly can't recall hearing anything but admiration for Aaron. He has been a great ambassador for the city. I understand that his remarks in USA Today upset some people. I admit that I was bothered at the time as they seemed to paint with a very broad brush. I honestly don't think he meant the comment to be interpreted to include as many people as it seemed to implicate. With all that Aaron encountered chasing Ruth's record (racist hate mail, death threats), I think that he handled the situation with much grace and class. Many would have been much more bitter and turned their back on the city, team, and fans. He has done just the opposite as he has continued to be a vital part of the organization and community.

That is really good and nice to hear.

Jeremy Lee

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by stargell1

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

Bravely spoken hiding behind a user name.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by stargell1

Yes. Aaron is a well known racist.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/hank-...obama-critics/

I don't think he's a racist, just a dumbass. Stupid comment? Yes. Racist? I don't think so, not to me anyway.

It's funny, but when you're white and criticize Obama's policies, you're demonized and branded as a racist just because he's black. When you're black (Harry Belafonte, Ben Carson, Herman Cain, Michael Steele, Allen West, the list goes on and on) and criticize Obama's policies, you're branded as an "Uncle Tom". So are black people who criticize (fill in name of white politician here) racist just because he's white? What do you call the same white people (who are called racist for criticizing Obama) that support other black politicians?

I didn't mean to get political, but the topic turned to Aaron's dumbass comment (even though I still consider him one of the greatest ever).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don't think he's a racist, just a dumbass. Stupid comment? Yes. Racist? I don't think so, not to me anyway.

It's funny, but when you're white and criticize Obama's policies, you're demonized and branded as a racist just because he's black. When you're black (Harry Belafonte, Ben Carson, Herman Cain, Michael Steele, Allen West, the list goes on and on) and criticize Obama's policies, you're branded as an "Uncle Tom". So are black people who criticize (fill in name of white politician here) racist just because he's white? What do you call the same white people (who are called racist for criticizing Obama) that support other black politicians?

I didn't mean to get political, but the topic turned to Aaron's dumbass comment (even though I still consider him one of the greatest ever).

Who is branding Obama's critics racist?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who is branding Obama's critics racist?

Hank Aaron (many others have done it as well).

From the article...

"MLB Hall of Famer Hank Aaron recently likened President Obama‘s Republican critics to the KKK in 'neckties and starched shirts'."

In other words, he's saying if you criticize Obama, you're a racist. Right?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by rats60

Aaron has a negative 4.8 defensive WAR. Aaron and Mays are not very pleasant people. I think that really hurts the value of their cards.

That's an interesting take.

[toppcat]

I agree that a player being a dick can hurt card values.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I agree that a player being a dick can hurt card values.

I agree, I was referencing the WAR portion of the post. Doubt a whole lot the card buyers have a clue what the player's WAR is. Could be wrong.

I think it was referenced in an earlier post about the "iconic" nature of Clemente as opposed to Aaron. I also think the "Dying Young" portion of the equation cannot be overlooked as a major contributor to the value. It's the same thing that makes James Dean regarded as a better actor than he was and Kennedy as a President as well.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I agree, I was referencing the WAR portion of the post. Doubt a whole lot the card buyers have a clue what the player's WAR is. Could be wrong.

I think it was referenced in an earlier post about the "iconic" nature of Clemente as opposed to Aaron. I also think the "Dying Young" portion of the equation cannot be overlooked as a major contributor to the value. It's the same thing that makes James Dean regarded as a better actor than he was and Kennedy as a President as well.

I agree. It definitely resonates in the American psyche. "The time you won your town the race...."