Clown on ebay

[ezez420]

Anyone see this clown on ebay. He is part of the issue

http://m.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-Ba...trkparms=pagec

[aloondilana]

My feelings exactly. I think this guy posted this to decoy himself from getting busted selling a fake Jordan.
Everyone beware!!! Lots of fake crap in legit psa holders out there.

[Joshwesley]

How prevalent are fake Jordan's in PSA holders?

That's scary... I want an 86 fleer Jordan and have been looking at some PSA 7's and 8's.

Any experts on here that can inspect one before I purchase it?

[hunky-dory]

Originally Posted by ezez420

Anyone see this clown on ebay. He is part of the issue



http://m.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey-Ba...trkparms=pagec

If you think I'm a clown, please feel free to PM me and we can discuss

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

How prevalent are fake Jordan's in PSA holders?

That's scary... I want an 86 fleer Jordan and have been looking at some PSA 7's and 8's.

Any experts on here that can inspect one before I purchase it?

I don't think they are faking 7s and 8s, with all the money in 9s and 10s.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

If you think I'm a clown, please feel free to PM me and we can discuss this. Perhaps you are selling some of the cards that have been scammed from the other dozen people I've spoken to.

Per the rules you probably need your full name out here. Nothing personal....thanks

[hunky-dory]

Originally Posted by Leon

Per the rules you probably need your full name out here. Nothing personal....thanks

Not sure I understand. You need your full name to receive a PM?


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[Leon]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

Not sure I understand. You need your full name to receive a PM?


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No, to accuse someone of potentially selling fake cards. Almost any opinion or debate needs a full name..it's at the top of every page. You can mask it to make it unsearchable if you want to, or edit out your comments. Your call....thanks

[hunky-dory]

I wasn't accusing him of selling fake cards, but perhaps ones that were traded for fake cards


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[hunky-dory]

Originally Posted by Leon

No, to accuse someone of potentially selling fake cards. Almost any opinion or debate needs a full name..it's at the top of every page. You can mask it to make it unsearchable if you want to, or edit out your comments. Your call....thanks

Edited...thanks


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

I wasn't accusing him of selling fake cards, but perhaps ones that were traded for fake cards


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I don't follow this. Mr. "A" trades a legit card to the scammer for a fake one. Why are you saying Ed ends up with the cards that were traded to the scammer?

[hunky-dory]

I was saying that the scammer receives real cards, like my Ruth and numerous others in exchange for fake cards. Those real cards are then sold by the scammer or someone that knows the scammer


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

I was saying that the scammer receives real cards, like my Ruth and numerous others in exchange for fake cards. Those real cards are then sold by the scammer or someone that knows the scammer


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So you are saying Ed is laundering the scammer's cards? On what basis?

[hunky-dory]

I'm not saying that, but I don't understand why there is skepticism to someone trying to warn others about a scammer. Seems suspicious


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

I'm not saying that, but I don't understand why there is skepticism to someone trying to warn others about a scammer. Seems suspicious


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Maybe all Ed meant is that you were part of the issue because you allowed yourself to be scammed too easily.

[hunky-dory]

Seems rather specious considering several dealers and long term collectors have reached out to me to say the same thing happened to them. Furthermore the PSA cases from this guy are intact


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

Seems rather specious considering several dealers and long term collectors have reached out to me to say the same thing happened to them. Furthermore the PSA cases from this guy are intact


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Yeah I have heard that. I have heard it stated that they are not fabricating their own holders, but one has to wonder.

[hunky-dory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yeah I have heard that. I have heard it stated that they are not fabricating their own holders, but one has to wonder.

I was recently informed by one of the major auction houses that a case of PSA slabs was stolen directly from PSA. So that could be it. It also could be an inside job.


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[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

I was recently informed by one of the major auction houses that a case of PSA slabs was stolen directly from PSA. So that could be it. It also could be an inside job.


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How many in a case? If true this could be fun.

[hunky-dory]

No idea how many


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many in a case? If true this could be fun.

Peter, I told you recently that slabs and flips make they're way out the back door at PSA. People think I'm crazy, don't believe me or just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218799
Post #270

OK, whatever. Don't believe it. I don't care. But look at his other thread in the BST section at the fake '52 Mantle. It has one of the newer flips with the PSA hologram. Real slab. Real flip. Fake card. Y'all keep drinking that PSA Kool Aid.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Say what you want about SGC, but these fake cards aren't turning up in SGC slabs. And I know SGC cards don't bring as much money as a PSA counterpart card does, but a fake SGC 96 '86 Jordan or a fake SGC 50 '52 Mantle would still bring a scammer pretty big money. So, ask yourself, why you aren't finding these cards in SGC holders? It's hot outside. How about another big, tall glass of Kool Aid? Cherry or grape?

[ezez420]

Peter or myself arent drinking anything. More people should educate themselves.

I am not involved with any of this stuff. So Hunky Dory you are dead wrong. You are also very wrong how you approached this situation by getting scammed and posting the info of the person who scammed you...with his fake name and all. Now that you have done that, I am sure he will change his number again, get a new ebay id, change his name, reholder your ruth that you sent to him and move on to another victim. And if you were truly working with the federal government I am sure they would have told you to keep your trap shut. So yeah I am calling you out for being a bonehead.

[Eric72]

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

I don't think the guy is selling the card. He is supposedly warning people about the seller he got the bad flips from. That being said something seems a bit off about all of this.. Here's a quote from him in another thread. " I actually spoke with the scammer and he admitted that the Jordan is fake. He claims that he is given these counterfeit cards (see other attached pics) and commissioned to scam people through eBay. He also told me he has done this numerous times and even sold a PSA 10 for $18K!!"

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224088

So you mean to tell me that you spoke to the seller and he admitted to a random ebay buyer that he's breaking the law and gives specifics??

[Leon]

Originally Posted by pherbener

I don't think the guy is selling the card. He is supposedly warning people about the seller he got the bad flips from. That being said something seems a bit off about all of this.. Here's a quote from him in another thread. " I actually spoke with the scammer and he admitted that the Jordan is fake. He claims that he is given these counterfeit cards (see other attached pics) and commissioned to scam people through eBay. He also told me he has done this numerous times and even sold a PSA 10 for $18K!!"

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=224088

So you mean to tell me that you spoke to the seller and he admitted to a random ebay buyer that he's breaking the law and gives specifics??

Sounds like the Mexico connection to me... allegedly been doing it for years and several authoritative entities have investigated him.

[b8tovene]

As a collector myself this scam really worries me, and I for one, appreciate the OP bringing it to our attention. Honest minds never think of things like this - so it takes hearing about something like this, to appreciate just how far people will go to rip you off in this hobby.

That said, PSA MUST address this issue. There must be some process put in place that allows the collector to know that the card and holder are not only original, but also paired with one another.

[glynparson]

They have been verifying high dollar cards at collectors requests for a while now. If anyone has any concerns about a high dollar purchase i would reach out to one of the big dealers like JP or Andy Madec or Heritage and they can have your cards relooked at and slabbed in the new label new holder for you.

[irv]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Say what you want about SGC, but these fake cards aren't turning up in SGC slabs. And I know SGC cards don't bring as much money as a PSA counterpart card does, but a fake SGC 96 '86 Jordan or a fake SGC 50 '52 Mantle would still bring a scammer pretty big money. So, ask yourself, why you aren't finding these cards in SGC holders? It's hot outside. How about another big, tall glass of Kool Aid? Cherry or grape?

As most of you know, I'm a small fish in this big collector sea but based on what I have read and seen on here and other avenues/forums numerous times, I must say PSA is quickly falling out of favor with me.

I have seen cards graded way too low for what they are and cards graded way to high for what they are as well.

This resubmit thing also boggles my mind and as someone said once, PSA= "Please Submit Again" it seems to be what they are hoping for time and time again.

I have some PSA graded cards as well as a few SGC's and a couple Beckett's and I will say, I much prefer the SGC slabbed cards more than I do the PSA's.

Beckett's are also nice, and if it's true that they are nearly impossible to crack, they'll get serious consideration over PSA as well if I ever decide to submit my cards.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, I told you recently that slabs and flips make they're way out the back door at PSA. People think I'm crazy, don't believe me or just want to bury their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=218799
Post #270

OK, whatever. Don't believe it. I don't care. But look at his other thread in the BST section at the fake '52 Mantle. It has one of the newer flips with the PSA hologram. Real slab. Real flip. Fake card. Y'all keep drinking that PSA Kool Aid.

What's your evidence that this happens David? Some anonymous guy claiming some unnamed AH told him isn't exactly proof.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What's your evidence that this happens David? Some anonymous guy claiming some unnamed AH told him isn't exactly proof.

Peter, the evidence is fake (or altered) cards showing up in real PSA slabs with real PSA flips. And its not a matter of the cards being switched out cards because the slabs havent been compromised.

[TUM301]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Wait, let me get this straight.

1. Someone scammed you out of a Goudey Babe Ruth
2. You claim that you're attempting to warn others about the scammer
3. To warn people, you listed the Ruth, a card no longer in your possession, for sale on eBay

It's rather early in the morning. I guess there is a part of your logic that I can't quite comprehend yet. Maybe some caffeine will help me figure this out.

I`m with you Eric, this entire "scam" process is very confusing. The stolen PSA slabs would have been great material for a Soppranos episode though !

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Peter, the evidence is fake (or altered) cards showing up in real PSA slabs with real PSA flips. And its not a matter of the cards being switched out cards because the slabs havent been compromised.

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ironically, this email just arrived from PSA.

Just like His Airness, PSA Holders Come in Clutch

As a leader in the collectibles world, we’re devoted to
the steadfast pursuit of the most secure collectibles technology.
Our sonically-sealed, ultra-secure holders are the result of that pursuit.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

I think its highly unlikely that someone is fabricating fake slabs AND flips. Some of these cards have the new flip with the new hologram.

Again I ask, why arent these fake cards turning up in SGC slabs? Sure, PSA outsells SGC, but a fake '52 Mantle even in an SGC slab would bring decent money.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming you are right about them not being compromised, how do you know they aren't having their own fabricated? This doesn't strike me as high technology, it's a piece of cheap plastic.

+1 I would guess that fabricating counterfeit slabs would be a simple task for those so inclined.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

+1 I would guess that fabricating counterfeit slabs would be a simple task for those so inclined.

How simple would it be to send one of the fake cards to PSA and have them confirm whether or not it was their slab and/or flip? Thats why PSA is silent on this.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How simple would it be to send one of the fake cards to PSA and have them confirm whether or not it was their slab and/or flip? Thats why PSA is silent on this.

I don't know David, but that's a step in the buying/ collecting process I'd just as soon not have to pursue. I just hope it gets figured out. I would hope this is a top priority with PSA because if your consumers begin to question the legitimacy of your product , there most certainly will be some repercussions.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I don't know David

Yes, you do know, but you don't want to think about the reality of it. PSA could confirm rather quickly if it was their slab and/or flip. They've been silent on that aspect of it, talking about everything else. Surely PSA has seen these (in their possession) fake cards already. So why not come out and say whether or not its theirs, or being counterfeited/reproduced elsewhere?

Lets just say for a minute that PSA caught someone red handed stealing slabs and flips out the back door? Two questions for you?

(1) As a PSA collector, would you want to know about it?
(2) Do you think PSA would publicly announce that?

[Peter_Spaeth]

So you are now saying PSA is covering up a hypothetical heist?

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, you do know, but you don't want to think about the reality of it. PSA could confirm rather quickly if it was their slab and/or flip. They've been silent on that aspect of it, talking about everything else. Surely PSA has seen these (in their possession) fake cards already. So why not come out and say whether or not its theirs, or being counterfeited/reproduced elsewhere?

Lets just say for a minute that PSA caught someone red handed stealing slabs and flips out the back door? Two questions for you?

(1) As a PSA collector, would you want to know about it?
(2) Do you think PSA would publicly announce that?

1) Yes
2) No
I think their response to the problem ( hence they've acknowledged it) was the design of the new holder and holo. Sure it fall short. It seems a photmatched database is an obvious answer. I'm sure there's a documented interview out there were Joe is asked these questions directly ?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

1) Yes
2) No
I think their response to the problem ( hence they've acknowledged it) was the design of the new holder and holo. Sure it fall short. It seems a photmatched database is an obvious answer. I'm sure there's a documented interview out there were Joe is asked these questions directly ?

I have made it known that you should have a card owner registry of the high value cards where the last registered owner would be contacted by email or something to see if they contend they are still in possession of the card (even know they arent doing the PSA registry thing)...cant fake same cert numbers when the current owner is notified and make it known there are 2 of the same certs out there..

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

1) Yes
2) No
I think their response to the problem ( hence they've acknowledged it) was the design of the new holder and holo. Sure it fall short. It seems a photmatched database is an obvious answer. I'm sure there's a documented interview out there were Joe is asked these questions directly ?

They acknowledged the problem, but they haven't acknowledged the source of the slabs and flips for these fake cards. There are only 2 scenarios here. Either (1) these are fake cards with fake PSA slabs and flips or (2) these are fake cards inside real PSA slabs and flips. Can you think of another scenario?

Why hasn't PSA addressed the source of the slabs and flips? If they weren't theirs, shouldnt they come out and say so to give collectors just a little more peace of mind.

Like I said in my opening post, I really dont care so, for me, its not worth discussing anymore.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David for someone who doesn't care you are devoting a lot of energy to it.

[botn]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Yes, you do know, but you don't want to think about the reality of it. PSA could confirm rather quickly if it was their slab and/or flip. They've been silent on that aspect of it, talking about everything else. Surely PSA has seen these (in their possession) fake cards already. So why not come out and say whether or not its theirs, or being counterfeited/reproduced elsewhere?

Lets just say for a minute that PSA caught someone red handed stealing slabs and flips out the back door? Two questions for you?

(1) As a PSA collector, would you want to know about it?
(2) Do you think PSA would publicly announce that?

As to 1) yes and as to 2) PSA has a history of covering up fraud like this. Just ask any of us who were active in the hobby in 2001-2003 when When It Was A Game had their own scam of sealing holders. Reading PSA statements about it, AFTER the fact will not suffice. PSA was not forthcoming with any information whatsoever to help collectors and dealers identify which holders were bad or to explain the extent of the fraud. They just wanted it to go away as fast as possible. That is their way of protecting the brand name--not by taking care of their customers.

As far as what is going on now, what good is it to send a holder in to PSA to have them examine it once it is bought or a trade is done and that holder turns out to be bad? This is far from proactive solution and offers ZERO protection or recourse to the victim. In fact, it is my understanding when you do that the card gets broken out and you get back the card inside of a card saver.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by botn

As to 1) yes and as to 2) PSA has a history of covering up fraud like this. Just ask any of us who were active in the hobby in 2001-2003 when When It Was A Game had their own scam of sealing holders. Reading PSA statements about it, AFTER the fact will not suffice. PSA was not forthcoming with any information whatsoever to help collectors and dealers identify which holders were bad or to explain the extent of the fraud. They just wanted it to go away as fast as possible. That is their way of protecting the brand name--not by taking care of their customers.

As far as what is going on now, what good is it to send a holder in to PSA to have them examine it once it is bought or a trade is done and that holder turns out to be bad? This is far from proactive solution and offers ZERO protection or recourse to the victim. In fact, it is my understanding when you do that the card gets broken out and you get back the card inside of a card saver.

+1. It seems like there is no "victim protection". They wipe their hands clean of it, and meanwhile, you are stuck for hundreds, if not thousands of dollars through no fault of your own.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by irv

Beckett's are also nice, and if it's true that they are nearly impossible to crack, they'll get serious consideration over PSA as well if I ever decide to submit my cards.

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

I have noticed a sharp dropoff in BGS cards relative to PSA. On a few rookies of 80s and 90s players I have looked at recently, a BGS 9.5 barely outsells a PSA 9, and sells for a fraction of a PSA 10.

[botn]

Originally Posted by JustinD

I am one of the minority that actually prefers to buy in a beckett slab exactly for this reason. The plus side is they also have a good price point in vintage as not many are on my bandwagon.

The opposite is true for modern as beckett has really made a name there. I think vintage will catch up in values as more begin to mistrust PSA slabs.

People have been mistrusting PSA slabs for a long time and it has not hurt the registry or prices...it is that concept of something being too big to fail, I guess. In spite of all of their issues I would take a PSA graded card over a Beckett graded card every time. When I see a vintage card in a Beckett holder I immediately start looking for the alteration.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hunky-dory

I was recently informed by one of the major auction houses that a case of PSA slabs was stolen directly from PSA. So that could be it. It also could be an inside job.


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Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How many in a case? If true this could be fun.

I don't know how many are in a case but I do know I could retire on 100 new empty PSA slabs. Wouldn't need the other stuff, just the slabs.