Iconic Player?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

To me an icon has to be transcendent though. I don't think Clemente or Pete Rose or even Willie Mays even transcended baseball. Mantle in my opinion certainly did. As have Jeter and Ichiro (in Japan). To be an icon (IMO) means that even people who might have never seen a baseball game before in their life know who you are.

By that standard I think you would have to include Jackie.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By that standard I think you would have to include Jackie.

You're right about that. I would include Jackie too.

[egri]

I keep going back and forth about whether or not Pee Wee Reese is iconic. He anchored their infield for 17 years in two cities (with a break for World War II), won seven pennants and one World Series (plus another as a coach the year after he retired), and put his arm around Jackie Robinson, but when I think "Brooklyn Dodgers", I think of Robinson, Hodges, and sometimes one or two others before getting to Reese.

[packs]

In my opinion the only thing iconic about Reese is his 1953 Bowman card. I would be surprised if you asked an average baseball fan about him and they could tell you anything other than maybe that he played for the Dodgers.

[ls7plus]

McGwire certainly was--he bolstered attendance ON THE ROAD to an incomparable, unfathomable degree, unmatched by anyone else since, except possibly Kershaw. Large portions of the crowd would even arrive early to watch him take batting practice (including me, in 1999 at old Tiger Stadium, where I saw him park four over the left field roof, which only Frank Howard, Harmon Killebrew and Cecil Fielder had ever done in a game. One of them cleared the roof not anywhere near down the line, BUT OVER LEFT CENTER! We were sitting in the left field upper deck, and while the long blasts of his teammates were landing rather softly in the upper deck, his were still coming with the velocity of cannon shots! No one hit them as far and as often as Big Mac! I still remember him parking one high off the scoreboard well beyond the right centerfield fence in old Shea Stadium). He was truly "Bunyonesque." Then of course, as we all know, he fell out of favor.

But it appears the younger generation simply doesn't care much about the steroid revelations--don't look now, but his '85 Topps PSA 10's and 9's have virtually doubled in the last year! And there are over 260 PSA "10's" and 5,000 "9's!" Now either that is speculation running rampant, or one h_ll of a tidal wave in demand!

Best to all,

Larry

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

McGwire certainly was--he bolstered attendance ON THE ROAD to an incomparable, unfathomable degree, unmatched by anyone else since, except possibly Kershaw. Large portions of the crowd would even arrive early to watch him take batting practice (including me, in 1999 at old Tiger Stadium, where I saw him park four over the left field roof, which only Frank Howard, Harmon Killebrew and Cecil Fielder had ever done in a game. One of them cleared the roof not anywhere near down the line, BUT OVER LEFT CENTER! We were sitting in the left field upper deck, and while the long blasts of his teammates were landing rather softly in the upper deck, his were still coming with the velocity of cannon shots! No one hit them as far and as often as Big Mac! I still remember him parking one high off the scoreboard well beyond the right centerfield fence in old Shea Stadium). He was truly "Bunyonesque." Then of course, as we all know, he fell out of favor.

But it appears the younger generation simply doesn't care much about the steroid revelations--don't look now, but his '85 Topps PSA 10's and 9's have virtually doubled in the last year! And there are over 260 PSA "10's" and 5,000 "9's!" Now either that is speculation running rampant, or one h_ll of a tidal wave in demand!

Best to all,

Larry

I love watching the home run contest he was in at Fenway! McGwire was a beast.

Just remember to turn down the sound so you don't have to listen to Chris Behrman.

[SAllen2556]

the definition:
a : widely recognized and well-established
b : widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence

I think a big part of being an iconic baseball player is that player's relationship with the public. Babe Ruth is the most iconic baseball player ever because his fame transcended the sport even beyond his talent. He was great with the press, the fans. He was in the public eye through movies, advertisements, and personal appearances.

Here in Detroit we have Miguel Cabrera who is the best baseball player I have ever seen - bar none. Al Kaline recently called him the best Detroit Tiger player he's ever seen - and he's seen them since the early 50's. I swear, when he's hitting, it looks like he's playing softball and everyone else is playing hardball - he's that good.

But is he iconic? He rarely gives interviews. His English is still horrible. He rarely does personal appearances. He does no ads, even locally. In short, we as fans, don't really know him. Would a soccer mom in California know his name or recognize his face? I doubt it. In my opinion, he's not an iconic player - not because his talent is lacking, but because he's never made any effort to be in the public eye. As a fan, I wish he did more because next to Ty Cobb, he's the best Detroit Tiger of all time.

I do wonder if the influx of Spanish speaking players, who seemingly make no effort to learn English, will sadly prevent some great players from ever becoming iconic.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

I love watching the home run contest he was in at Fenway! McGwire was a beast.

Just remember to turn down the sound so you don't have to listen to Chris Behrman.

But Griffey won. McGwire burned himself out in the first round.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by packs

In my opinion the only thing iconic about Reese is his 1953 Bowman card. I would be surprised if you asked an average baseball fan about him and they could tell you anything other than maybe that he played for the Dodgers.

The amount of baseball history that the average current baseball fan is unfamiliar with is truly sad. They are missing out on a lot!

Larry

PS: Pete is 100% on the mark--you absolutely have to include Jackie Robinson!

[GasHouseGang]

I'm surprised Ted Williams is falling in popularity. He was iconic in the 1950's. He was nicknamed "The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived", that certainly sounds iconic. Williams was a seventeen-time All-Star, two-time MVP, a six-time AL batting champion, and a two-time Triple Crown winner. His numbers are pretty darned good too. He had a lifetime .344 batting average, with 521 home runs, and a .482 on-base percentage, the highest of all time.

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I'm surprised Ted Williams is falling in popularity. He was iconic in the 1950's. He was nicknamed "The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived", that certainly sounds iconic. Williams was a seventeen-time All-Star, two-time MVP, a six-time AL batting champion, and a two-time Triple Crown winner. His numbers are pretty darned good too. He had a lifetime .344 batting average, with 521 home runs, and a .482 on-base percentage, the highest of all time.

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

IMHO, Williams is just out of vogue/focus at the moment. A couple of years ago, before the current speculative boom in '50's and 60's material, his 1939 R303A rookie was very, very hot (one in SGC VG went for just under $1700 in 2014, a sale I quite vividly recall because I was sniped out of it in the last seven seconds or so. Only one I am aware of has popped up since, and I bought it, later happily adding the '39 V351 to keep it company).

He is, by the way, the greatest hitter of all time by the best yardstick I know: runs created versus the league average runs created per 27 outs over the course of a career. This is a Bill James statistic, the ultimate sabermathematician who has shown that runs scored versus runs allowed, when subjected to the proper formula, will yield quite precise estimates of a teams' won lost record over a season (generally within 2-3 games). Williams was No. 1 in this category, creating an astonishing 250% of the runs a league average player would create over the course of his entire career, while Ruth was second at 240% (Ruth created more total runs, but the conditions of his era made it easier to score runs, hence Williams' greater percentage in comparison to the league average player of his own era). Select others in the over 200% group would seem to confirm the complete legitimacy of this stat as a valuable yardstick, evening out conditions from era to era: Mantle (around 215%, as I recall), Gehrig, Cobb, Jackson, Hornsby and at least one other whose name does not immediately come to mind. Musial was quite good, by the way, at 193%, a figure topping Aaron, Mays, Foxx, Speaker, and Wagner, who were all in the 180% range.

Highest regards,

Larry

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

I think one of the reason that Musial isn't automatically named in this discussion is because he wasn't in the face of every kid on the east coast throughout most of his career. If you lived in the Midwest you knew his name from the radio broadcasts but the majority of population in the north east had all their own teams. You knew him as an opposing player if you rooted for an NL team but if liked an AL team, well no luck.

In the 40's practically no major card sets were produced. The early 50's saw the dawning of modern post war cards and the early 50's card wars but after Musial's 53 Bowman card he doesn't get his own regular issue card until 1959 (not including his 58 AS card). By then the 50's were about over, the west coast had teams, the Yankees were shown beatable (sometimes) and the Cardinals were not too good. Musial was winding down his career.

I know that a lot of guys in my age range, 40's, who didn't see or hear of players in the 40's and 50's until we started putting sets together missed out on those all important mid 50's Topps and Bowman Stan Musial cards.

I have a friend and fellow collector that learned practically all he knows about the era from collecting cards and couldn't understand why I was so infatuated with Musial. He had heard of him but not seen his greatness.

I think if Musial had regular issue cards throughout his career his standing popularity with today's fans would be higher.

Another reason is he didn't do all the show signings and tours of the 70's and 80's. He had already been signing everything for everyone for decades. You can practically find a Musial autograph on anything and everything. I'm not really an autograph collector but I do like Musial. I realized I have seven items signed by him!

All this to say some of the things that made others of his generation "iconic" didn't seem to happen to Stan the man Musial.

Drew