Iconic Player?

[GasHouseGang]

I'm surprised Ted Williams is falling in popularity. He was iconic in the 1950's. He was nicknamed "The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived", that certainly sounds iconic. Williams was a seventeen-time All-Star, two-time MVP, a six-time AL batting champion, and a two-time Triple Crown winner. His numbers are pretty darned good too. He had a lifetime .344 batting average, with 521 home runs, and a .482 on-base percentage, the highest of all time.

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I'm surprised Ted Williams is falling in popularity. He was iconic in the 1950's. He was nicknamed "The Greatest Hitter Who Ever Lived", that certainly sounds iconic. Williams was a seventeen-time All-Star, two-time MVP, a six-time AL batting champion, and a two-time Triple Crown winner. His numbers are pretty darned good too. He had a lifetime .344 batting average, with 521 home runs, and a .482 on-base percentage, the highest of all time.

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

IMHO, Williams is just out of vogue/focus at the moment. A couple of years ago, before the current speculative boom in '50's and 60's material, his 1939 R303A rookie was very, very hot (one in SGC VG went for just under $1700 in 2014, a sale I quite vividly recall because I was sniped out of it in the last seven seconds or so. Only one I am aware of has popped up since, and I bought it, later happily adding the '39 V351 to keep it company).

He is, by the way, the greatest hitter of all time by the best yardstick I know: runs created versus the league average runs created per 27 outs over the course of a career. This is a Bill James statistic, the ultimate sabermathematician who has shown that runs scored versus runs allowed, when subjected to the proper formula, will yield quite precise estimates of a teams' won lost record over a season (generally within 2-3 games). Williams was No. 1 in this category, creating an astonishing 250% of the runs a league average player would create over the course of his entire career, while Ruth was second at 240% (Ruth created more total runs, but the conditions of his era made it easier to score runs, hence Williams' greater percentage in comparison to the league average player of his own era). Select others in the over 200% group would seem to confirm the complete legitimacy of this stat as a valuable yardstick, evening out conditions from era to era: Mantle (around 215%, as I recall), Gehrig, Cobb, Jackson, Hornsby and at least one other whose name does not immediately come to mind. Musial was quite good, by the way, at 193%, a figure topping Aaron, Mays, Foxx, Speaker, and Wagner, who were all in the 180% range.

Highest regards,

Larry

[packs]

I think Ted's problem lies in what his legacy really is to most non-avid baseball fans: he's the guy who had his head frozen.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by packs

I think Ted's problem lies in what his legacy really is to most non-avid baseball fans: he's the guy who had his head frozen.

Well, the actions of his son, John Henry, and daughter, certainly didn't help in that regard, but if you read the most recent independent biography (sorry, I simply can't recall the author), there is substantial evidence that Ted himself had nothing at all to do with this sad scenario. John Henry Williams' most likely hope was to resurrect his dad into the autograph-signing machine he had made him into for the former's financial benefit. But the boom in his R303A rookie was simply oblivious to that sorry state of affairs. I think it would well have continued but for the current diversion being carried on with '50's and '60's cards.

Best, Packs,

Larry

[almostdone]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

Another player who's card values always surprised me though, was Stan Musial. His card values never seemed to line up with the legend that he was in the Midwest where I grew up. I guess if he had played on the Yankees for instance, his card values would be higher. But that just means I can afford to collect them.

I think one of the reason that Musial isn't automatically named in this discussion is because he wasn't in the face of every kid on the east coast throughout most of his career. If you lived in the Midwest you knew his name from the radio broadcasts but the majority of population in the north east had all their own teams. You knew him as an opposing player if you rooted for an NL team but if liked an AL team, well no luck.

In the 40's practically no major card sets were produced. The early 50's saw the dawning of modern post war cards and the early 50's card wars but after Musial's 53 Bowman card he doesn't get his own regular issue card until 1959 (not including his 58 AS card). By then the 50's were about over, the west coast had teams, the Yankees were shown beatable (sometimes) and the Cardinals were not too good. Musial was winding down his career.

I know that a lot of guys in my age range, 40's, who didn't see or hear of players in the 40's and 50's until we started putting sets together missed out on those all important mid 50's Topps and Bowman Stan Musial cards.

I have a friend and fellow collector that learned practically all he knows about the era from collecting cards and couldn't understand why I was so infatuated with Musial. He had heard of him but not seen his greatness.

I think if Musial had regular issue cards throughout his career his standing popularity with today's fans would be higher.

Another reason is he didn't do all the show signings and tours of the 70's and 80's. He had already been signing everything for everyone for decades. You can practically find a Musial autograph on anything and everything. I'm not really an autograph collector but I do like Musial. I realized I have seven items signed by him!

All this to say some of the things that made others of his generation "iconic" didn't seem to happen to Stan the man Musial.

Drew