1954 Topps Ernie Banks PSA 8 PWCC

[bobbyw8469]

Ahh..my friend...you must not be a VCP member. A little research goes a long way to see I am telling the truth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...247?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...372?rmvSB=true

That is a '1' vs a PSA '3.5' by the almighty PWCC nonetheless! I think that is a clear example that people are looking at the cards and not the flips. The times are changing. Adapt or get crushed.

Research yourself...I am too busy. I had a Reggie Jackson rookie PSA 6 that sold for more than its PSA 7 counterpart in the SAME AUCTION (with PWCC). The same statement can be said for a Bob Gibson rookie I had with PWCC. You HAVE to account for centering and overall eye appeal of the card.

[glynparson]

The question I have is who are the selling for more to collectors or card doctors?

If collectors than yes it is solely the eye appeal making the difference if it is card doctors its because they think they can work it to an 8 or 9.

That said cards do matter more especially in lower grades than the holders do.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

The question I have is who are the selling for more to collectors or card doctors?

If collectors than yes it is solely the eye appeal making the difference if it is card doctors its because they think they can work it to an 8 or 9.

That said cards do matter more especially in lower grades than the holders do.

From what I am hearing and seeing, quite a number of recent high dollar purchases have been by people one would think of as card doctors.

[pokerplyr80]

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

right plus we cant say a rose 7 that sold that sold now outsold a rose 7 last year...market changed..

basically when the money matters to middle class person is when the flip becomes more important....one exception the 'artwork' cards where any month can be a 100k plus or minus like a psa 3 versus 4 rookie ruth or wagner...there more to the card, who used to own it and other factors besides the flip....

but for 99% of the cards where the money matters the flip matters... i not see a 2.5 topps rookie mantle sell for 40k but i bet you there have been some lame 4.5s that have..

will i pay 100 bucks more on a psa 3 even though 4's go for 70...sure who cares about 30 bucks if love the card....if its over 4k...then i not going to make that decision so easily..

[Leon]

On those specific cards, in 7 and above, I agree because the prices are so different. But that is not the case with 98% of the cards we see. I know as I am looking for many hours every single day at completed auctions and recent sales prices. Below the 7 and 8 level on those two cards you will see jockeying in values not respective of their flips. I can post numerous examples but it's common sense if you are watching what is going on. I routinely see '51 and '52 Micks in 2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 grades that underperform their lower number counterparts which have better visual appeal. It only happens almost every single day.

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It sounds like the point 52boyton is trying to make is that on cards where there is a huge price jump for 1 grade, say a clemente 7 at 25k vs an 8 at 125k you will never see a nice 7 out sell an 8.

I'd have to say I agree. On these types of cards the higher grade will always bring a higher price. I do remember an example that was discussed on net54 of a very nice 51 mantle 4 outselling a rough 5 in the same auction. Maybe a year ago or so. But that is another card where I don't thing you'll ever see a 7 outsell an 8, or an 8 outsell a 9.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

On those specific cards, in 7 and above, I agree because the prices are so different. But that is not the case with 98% of the cards we see. I know as I am looking for many hours every single day at completed auctions and recent sales prices. Below the 7 and 8 level on those two cards you will see jockeying in values not respective of their flips. I can post numerous examples but it's common sense if you are watching what is going on. I routinely see '51 and '52 Micks in 2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 grades that underperform their lower number counterparts which have better visual appeal. It only happens almost every single day.

I agree with that as well. I would expect your 2.5 52 Mantle to outsell some of the jacked up 4s that have been going in the low to mid 20s in the same auction. Same with any of the 50s rookies that are so popular right now. A nice dead center low to mid grade card can easily bring a price a grade or two above recent sales. But on higher grades where one grade means a jump of 100% or more in price it won't happen.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree with that as well. I would expect your 2.5 52 Mantle to outsell some of the jacked up 4s that have been going in the low to mid 20s in the same auction. Same with any of the 50s rookies that are so popular right now. A nice dead center low to mid grade card can easily bring a price a grade or two above recent sales. But on higher grades where one grade means a jump of 100% or more in price it won't happen.

right...when it comes to putting your money where you mouth is...when talking that type of money..the flip matters... someone can say a number 15 seed will beat a number 2 seed in the NCAA tourney but if forced to bet even money, then are going to go with the the number 2 seed even though the 15 seed is 'better'...

so for things that matter the flip matters on 99% of the deals..thats all i saying...always exceptions...but theres a reason why there is a Rule in the first place...then the exceptions..

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From what I am hearing and seeing, quite a number of recent high dollar purchases have been by people one would think of as card doctors.

if this is true than I'd be more concerned there may be "relationships" between said "doctors" and graders at "PSA" presumably...especially in light of the supposed cracking down on giving high grades at psa.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

if this is true than I'd be more concerned there may be "relationships" between said "doctors" and graders at "PSA" presumably...especially in light of the supposed cracking down on giving high grades at psa.

Maybe. Then again, there are very good card doctors out there, and as I have said many times for your submission fee you aren't buying a crime lab, you are buying a quick review.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Ahh..my friend...you must not be a VCP member. A little research goes a long way to see I am telling the truth.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...247?rmvSB=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1956-Topps-M...372?rmvSB=true

That is a '1' vs a PSA '3.5' by the almighty PWCC nonetheless! I think that is a clear example that people are looking at the cards and not the flips. The times are changing. Adapt or get crushed.

Research yourself...I am too busy. I had a Reggie Jackson rookie PSA 6 that sold for more than its PSA 7 counterpart in the SAME AUCTION (with PWCC). The same statement can be said for a Bob Gibson rookie I had with PWCC. You HAVE to account for centering and overall eye appeal of the card.

right the lower grades when its not about 1000s of dollars there iss more of a chance but for every 1 example you show i can show 10000 examples of a horribly looking 8 going for more than a 7....people sell the holder not the card. As for research, the last time someone asked me for that is when i stated that PSA is much more prevalent then SGC all around and as far as value. I think its obvious now as well as my statement here than 99% of the time the grade rules. Id like to see a PSA 8 common 1974 topps card ever sell for more than a psa 9 in the same auction. Many posters have said they cant even tell the difference between 9s and 10s yet 10s sell for more for example...if cant tell the difference they should sell for the same.

[Leon]

I disagree with quite a bit of what you say on this one. Go do a search on '52 Mantles, '51 Mantles and any other higher end HOF rookie. Almost every single sale will be based on the way the card looks AS WELL AS the grade on the paper. At least that is what I am seeing spending countless hours watching.
I personally pay more for better cards in lower grades than what the flip says on higher grade but lesser quality cards. So do almost all of the buyers I see on ebay. Some are buying holders....but those cards are going for less than the really nice cards in the same holders. People like yourself say "hey it's an 8"....then you go to sell and can't figure out why your card doesn't bring what a nicer 7 does. I think it's because some people (investors and less knowledgeable collectors) buy holders and most experienced collectors buy cards.....Go figure....


And when you say if an 8 looks the same as a 10 they should sell for the same, that is the crux of this whole debate. Investors, registry collectors and other less caring hobbyists buy the flip. Others buy the cards. And yes there are a lot of flip collectors, no doubt about it.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right the lower grades when its not about 1000s of dollars there iss more of a chance but for every 1 example you show i can show 10000 examples of a horribly looking 8 going for more than a 7....people sell the holder not the card. As for research, the last time someone asked me for that is when i stated that PSA is much more prevalent then SGC all around and as far as value. I think its obvious now as well as my statement here than 99% of the time the grade rules. Id like to see a PSA 8 common 1974 topps card ever sell for more than a psa 9 in the same auction. Many posters have said they cant even tell the difference between 9s and 10s yet 10s sell for more for example...if cant tell the difference they should sell for the same.