WOW! 1960 Yaz rookie PSA 9

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Could you might be from the N.E.??

I dislike the Red Sox first and foremost.

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Bench- 2 titles, Yaz- 0

I didn't know titles were a qualification of being a Hall of famer. Before the steroid era, at the time of his election, Yaz's stats were pretty damn impressive. Add in his gold gloves, and you have a pretty complete player. I would imagine his 18 All-Star selections during his playing days, were a good sign of his place in the game.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I dislike the Red Sox first and foremost.



I didn't know titles were a qualification of being a Hall of famer. Before the steroid era, at the time of his election, Yaz's stats were pretty damn impressive. Add in his gold gloves, and you have a pretty complete player. I would imagine his 18 All-Star selections during his playing days, were a good sign of his place in the game.

The most compelling criticism I have seen of Yaz is that his numbers were in large part due to park effects and that he really wasn't all that good on the road. I think Tabe if I am remembering correctly made a pretty strong case for that.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The most compelling criticism I have seen of Yaz is that his numbers were in large part due to park effects and that he really wasn't all that good on the road. I think Tabe if I am remembering correctly made a pretty strong case for that.

His splits were not that bad on the road. If that's the case, let's start penalizing players career stats today, b/c they play in the launching pad stadiums of today. Plus, home versus away didn't affect his gold gloves. I'm not saying that he is a top tier Hall of Famer. I am just saying that at the time of his election, how could he be denied.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Carl Yastrzemski
Home/Away---BA----Slg.--onbase------HR------D------T------RBI----AB-----BB
Home:------.306---.503----.405------237----382-----38---1,063---5,948---959
Away:------.264----.422----.360-------215----264-----21------781---6,040---886

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Carl Yastrzemski
Home/Away---BA----Slg.--onbase------HR------D------T------RBI----AB-----BB
Home:------.306---.503----.405------237----382-----38---1,063---5,948---959
Away:------.264----.422----.360-------215----264-----21------781---6,040---886

What does this prove, that Yaz wasn't a Hall of Famer at the time of his election? Not every Hall of Famer is going to have Ruthian stats. You have certain players who are of course superior to others, but that doesn't mean that they are not worthy on a certain level. Don't forget to add in his GG's, unless you don't want to count defensive awards. Then again, there are people who argue that Nolan Ryan isn't Hall of Fame worthy b/c of his winning %age and lack of Cy Youngs, so nothing surprises me in these conversations.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

What does this prove, that Yaz wasn't a Hall of Famer at the time of his election? Not every Hall of Famer is going to have Ruthian stats. You have certain players who are of course superior to others, but that doesn't mean that they are not worthy on a certain level. Don't forget to add in his GG's, unless you don't want to count defensive awards. Then again, there are people who argue that Nolan Ryan isn't Hall of Fame worthy b/c of his winning %age and lack of Cy Youngs, so nothing surprises me in these conversations.

No he is clearly a HOFer, it would be insane to argue otherwise, just perhaps not quite as good as his popularity/mythology suggests.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No he is clearly a HOFer, it would be insane to argue otherwise, just perhaps not quite as good as his popularity/mythology suggests.

I really don't think that he is all that popular/mythical outside of the Boston area, although when it comes to key rookies in 60's baseball cards, he is in the top ten, arguably top 5(only Rose and Ryan clearly ahead). I think that's the driving force behind this card, more than just Yaz himself.

[KCRfan1]

Park or not, Yaz was a fine player. He had a great game and had to in order to play for 24 years. If one is going to hold a player accountable to the " park effect " then the same has to apply to Ruth, Gehrig, Koufax ( pitchers park ), ect. Either you have mad talent to be among the greats or you don't, and the talent will translate to any park.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Babe Ruth
Home/Away--BA----Slg.--onbase---HR-----D-----T-----RBI------AB-----BB
Home:-----.347---.699---.482-----347---239---70------979---4,033---1,037
Away:-----.338----.681---.466-----367---267---66---1,004---4,388---1,019

Lou Gehrig
Home/Away--BA----Slg.----onbase---HR---D-------T-----RBI------AB------BB
Home:-----.329---.620-----.436----251---206-----83-----947-----3,861----713
Away:-----.351---.644----.458----242---329-----79---1,043-----4,140---795

[nat]

Is someone really trying to argue that Carl Yastrzemski doesn't belong in the hall of fame? If you're worried about park effects, look at OPS+, which normalizes for those. Yaz has a 130 OPS+ in about 14,000 PA. He's tied with Roberto Clemente, Mike Epstein, Greg Luzinski, Minnie Minoso, Hal Trosky, Dave Winfield, and Ross Youngs. And of course has more PA than any of them (he's second all-time).

He wound up with a (barely) positive dWAR, despite the fact that he played corner outfield and 1B, positions which start with a penalty in dWAR. By comparison, Winfield was at -23 dWAR and Clemente was at 12. Both in corner outfield spots. So what we've got is someone who was much better than Winfield as a fielder, and quite a bit worse than Clemente (which sounds about right). He was their equal as a batter, and had a much longer career than either. That's way way way over the line for the hall of fame.

(Just for fun, Luzinski was at -21 dWAR in a career much shorter than Winfield's.)