PWCC Juggernaught

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree that this strategy doesn't make much sense, and is not one that I utilize, aside from the one early bid I mentioned I like to place.

I also agree that some bids such as these may very well be placed by consignors shilling their own auctions. My main point is that there is no way for us to know for sure without more information, and that there have been instances in which foul play was assumed but there was none.

Jesse, I agree that we do not know but that does not mean we should not be suspicious or curious. Someone figured out that shill bidding was going on at Mastro and everyone thought it was just business as usual. Seeing irregular bidding patters, same bidder ids over and over, high amounts of bid retractions or bids and it resulting in crushing record prices over and over (and not just on Jake's arbitrary 5% figure) certainly makes me wonder. T206 threads are the only thing here that out number those questioning PWCC but that does not mean people should turn a blind eye and not raise questions.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

Jesse, I agree that we do not know but that does not mean we should not be suspicious or curious. Someone figured out that shill bidding was going on at Mastro and everyone thought it was just business as usual. Seeing irregular bidding patters, same bidder ids over and over, high amounts of bid retractions or bids and it resulting in crushing record prices over and over (and not just on Jake's arbitrary 5% figure) certainly makes me wonder. T206 threads are the only thing here that out number those questioning PWCC but that does not mean people should turn a blind eye and not raise questions.

I agree with your assessment. I also remember Brent saying that he doesn't have access as the seller to the same information we do regarding the bid history as the seller. I don't sell on ebay and can't confirm that. He did say if someone emails him an example like the one Peter posted he will investigate, respond, and take action if appropriate. Maybe we should do that more often and see what happens.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree with your assessment. I also remember Brent saying that he doesn't have access as the seller to the same information we do regarding the bid history as the seller. I don't sell on ebay and can't confirm that. He did say if someone emails him an example like the one Peter posted he will investigate, respond, and take action if appropriate. Maybe we should do that more often and see what happens.

If Brent did post that, then he is mistaken. As the seller he can see the entire ids of each bidder. He also is alerted to bid retractions as they occur, where as we would need to dig for that info. As far as seeing the number of bid retractions a bidder has, he simply needs to log out or open a separate window in private browsing and click on the id in question and he can see the bid retraction history for any of his bidders. This is what eBay suggests sellers do if they seek that information.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

If Brent did post that, then he is mistaken. As the seller he can see the entire ids of each bidder. He also is alerted to bid retractions as they occur, where as we would need to dig for that info. As far as seeing the number of bid retractions a bidder has, he simply needs to log out or open a separate window in private browsing and click on the id in question and he can see the bid retraction history for any of his bidders. This is what eBay suggests sellers do if they seek that information.

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We have had this discussion many times about large ebay sellers. Yes they have too many auctions to monitor each and every one, but on the other hand it's very easy to put your auctions in order by price and check the top 25 or 40 or whatever, which is where -- if any bad stuff is going on -- it's going to be most prevalent and obvious anyhow. The head of a business is accountable. The excuse that it's too big for them to be accountable doesn't work for Tim Cook and it certainly won't work for an ebay seller. IMO.

I don't think Brent would make that excuse either, by the way.

[Pilot172000]

Ok, I have won a big card in two of the last PWCC auctions. I watched it closely, there was a big run with only seconds left and I was able to get in my winning bid at the bell. Both cards I was happy to win and both cards I spent exactly $35 over what I planned to spend. Coincidence?? Most likely, but having bid on dozens of PWCC auctions and they all end exactly the same.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

Like Jake, I can see that Brent can do no wrong with you either, which is fine. I am not saying Brent is doing wrong but it is his business and there are things he can do, 10,000+ listings a month or not, to make sure the integrity of his listings are not compromised. If people want to protect their consignments or establish false market values by bidding up their consignments, they will find a way to do that with Brent taking all the steps he can to ensure it does not happen. My gut tells me there is not a whole lot of incentive to do so and so far absolutely no consequences should steps not be taken to keep the listings clean. Brent makes money and gets future consignments, eBay makes their cut and collectors get the cards they want so it is a win win even if they are paying far more than the card would have otherwise sold for.

[GregMitch34]

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

[pokerplyr80]

In response to Greg and Peter, I'm not saying he can't do any wrong, or shouldn't be held accountable if something improper or illegal is happening in his auctions. I'm saying he offered to look into any allegation. If either if you suspect something in this auction, or others as you mentioned, why not email him the evidence and see what he has to say?

[botn]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

Problem is that as a bidder you do not know if the people you are bidding against are engaged in spirited bidding or if they are simply protecting their consignments or trying to establish significantly higher market values. Getting an item for less than you are willing to pay is great but that is not always necessary for all purchases to be worthwhile.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.

And that big bargain to the buyer is the seller getting crushed....sellers never complain about getting crushed..they love to give bargains......lets face its an auction..we are going to have to pay market price and/or what the consignor is willing to really let it go for .....private sales are the way to go if you are looking for deals or buying in bulk, jessie listed his clemente rookie for 7k on net54.....not sure why people are looking for 'deals' on ebay auctions with no or fake reserves...why not buy the card direct and pay up and not worry about losing an auction in the last few secs...

you bid against the coke machine in auto auctions with no 'reserve'...

[Snapolit1]

I get that everyone loves to get a bargain, and I'm not pro-shilling, but what's the real harm if PWCC starts a 52 Mantle worth $175,000 at 99 cents and the consignor or his brother quickly run the card up to $100,000. You didn't think the whole world was asleep and you were going to get the card at $19.99 did you?
OK, attack me . . . .