PWCC Juggernaught

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

He with the most bids does not win. It does not benefit a buyer to bid early, especially often, on an eBay auction let alone one from Brent who lets all of his auctions go to the end. I would question the bidders tactics even if legit.

This type of bidding pattern can be found in way too many of Brent's listings. Again, not saying they are all done to shill but his coming on here and addressing one or two auctions does not mean in all instances this pattern is legit.

I agree that this strategy doesn't make much sense, and is not one that I utilize, aside from the one early bid I mentioned I like to place.

I also agree that some bids such as these may very well be placed by consignors shilling their own auctions. My main point is that there is no way for us to know for sure without more information, and that there have been instances in which foul play was assumed but there was none.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree that this strategy doesn't make much sense, and is not one that I utilize, aside from the one early bid I mentioned I like to place.

I also agree that some bids such as these may very well be placed by consignors shilling their own auctions. My main point is that there is no way for us to know for sure without more information, and that there have been instances in which foul play was assumed but there was none.

as long as the consignors are charged like everybody else if the 'win' their own item i fine with it..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

as long as the consignors are charged like everybody else if the 'win' their own item i fine with it..

Coming from a guy obsessed with market values that is really surprising, given the potential to run up and manipulate said market values.

[botn]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

as long as the consignors are charged like everybody else if the 'win' their own item i fine with it..

What about the fact that if this practice being done in such high volume it results in truly giving a distorted and severely inflated market value if bids are being placed simply to set new market highs? That seems to be more dangerous than simply shilling your consignments to maximize your returns.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree that this strategy doesn't make much sense, and is not one that I utilize, aside from the one early bid I mentioned I like to place.

I also agree that some bids such as these may very well be placed by consignors shilling their own auctions. My main point is that there is no way for us to know for sure without more information, and that there have been instances in which foul play was assumed but there was none.

Jesse, I agree that we do not know but that does not mean we should not be suspicious or curious. Someone figured out that shill bidding was going on at Mastro and everyone thought it was just business as usual. Seeing irregular bidding patters, same bidder ids over and over, high amounts of bid retractions or bids and it resulting in crushing record prices over and over (and not just on Jake's arbitrary 5% figure) certainly makes me wonder. T206 threads are the only thing here that out number those questioning PWCC but that does not mean people should turn a blind eye and not raise questions.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

Jesse, I agree that we do not know but that does not mean we should not be suspicious or curious. Someone figured out that shill bidding was going on at Mastro and everyone thought it was just business as usual. Seeing irregular bidding patters, same bidder ids over and over, high amounts of bid retractions or bids and it resulting in crushing record prices over and over (and not just on Jake's arbitrary 5% figure) certainly makes me wonder. T206 threads are the only thing here that out number those questioning PWCC but that does not mean people should turn a blind eye and not raise questions.

I agree with your assessment. I also remember Brent saying that he doesn't have access as the seller to the same information we do regarding the bid history as the seller. I don't sell on ebay and can't confirm that. He did say if someone emails him an example like the one Peter posted he will investigate, respond, and take action if appropriate. Maybe we should do that more often and see what happens.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I agree with your assessment. I also remember Brent saying that he doesn't have access as the seller to the same information we do regarding the bid history as the seller. I don't sell on ebay and can't confirm that. He did say if someone emails him an example like the one Peter posted he will investigate, respond, and take action if appropriate. Maybe we should do that more often and see what happens.

If Brent did post that, then he is mistaken. As the seller he can see the entire ids of each bidder. He also is alerted to bid retractions as they occur, where as we would need to dig for that info. As far as seeing the number of bid retractions a bidder has, he simply needs to log out or open a separate window in private browsing and click on the id in question and he can see the bid retraction history for any of his bidders. This is what eBay suggests sellers do if they seek that information.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by botn

If Brent did post that, then he is mistaken. As the seller he can see the entire ids of each bidder. He also is alerted to bid retractions as they occur, where as we would need to dig for that info. As far as seeing the number of bid retractions a bidder has, he simply needs to log out or open a separate window in private browsing and click on the id in question and he can see the bid retraction history for any of his bidders. This is what eBay suggests sellers do if they seek that information.

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

We have had this discussion many times about large ebay sellers. Yes they have too many auctions to monitor each and every one, but on the other hand it's very easy to put your auctions in order by price and check the top 25 or 40 or whatever, which is where -- if any bad stuff is going on -- it's going to be most prevalent and obvious anyhow. The head of a business is accountable. The excuse that it's too big for them to be accountable doesn't work for Tim Cook and it certainly won't work for an ebay seller. IMO.

I don't think Brent would make that excuse either, by the way.

[Pilot172000]

Ok, I have won a big card in two of the last PWCC auctions. I watched it closely, there was a big run with only seconds left and I was able to get in my winning bid at the bell. Both cards I was happy to win and both cards I spent exactly $35 over what I planned to spend. Coincidence?? Most likely, but having bid on dozens of PWCC auctions and they all end exactly the same.

[botn]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Thats right, it was regarding the number of retractions a bidder has that he said he doesn't see. Either way with 10k listings in monthly auctions it would be hard to monitor the bidding history and patterns for them all. If we are concerned as a community about shilling in his auctions and others I still say it's a good idea to take him up on his offer to look into to any suspicious activity reported to him. As big as his business has gotten any time I have reached out to him he has responded personally in a timely manner.

Like Jake, I can see that Brent can do no wrong with you either, which is fine. I am not saying Brent is doing wrong but it is his business and there are things he can do, 10,000+ listings a month or not, to make sure the integrity of his listings are not compromised. If people want to protect their consignments or establish false market values by bidding up their consignments, they will find a way to do that with Brent taking all the steps he can to ensure it does not happen. My gut tells me there is not a whole lot of incentive to do so and so far absolutely no consequences should steps not be taken to keep the listings clean. Brent makes money and gets future consignments, eBay makes their cut and collectors get the cards they want so it is a win win even if they are paying far more than the card would have otherwise sold for.

[GregMitch34]

The problem with shills bids or consignors simply running up the bids to a "fair" value is that many people find it fun (or valuable) to try to get a "bargain" or maybe even a "steal" from time to time, to balance the times you overpay or value of a card plunges. If consignor bidding up the price eliminates any chance for a bargain it discourages people from even looking at what to bid on. PWCC has a reputation for getting high prices, which is fine, except that it also has a reputation for rarely--unless you really bid a lot and are super alert--providing that big bargain. I've stopped paying as much attention because of that, while still winning a card here and there, though rarely at bargain price.