Ty Cobb not the monster many have made him out to be?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

Have you ever been heckled? Has anybody ever verbally abused you during the course of your work? The crippled guy may have been handicapped but he certainly was man enough to say some pretty bad stuff to Cobb over the course of several games. My old man lost his right arm at age twelve and he certainly never shied away from the good fights. He thought me that if your willing to say it you darn well be willing to back it up. The handicapped man had been warned several times and continued anyway. If you are man enough to say it then you are man enough to tote the a$$ whooping that comes with it. That's not just my opinion, it's the opinion of the entire Detroit squad, most of which hated Cobbs guts. They boycotted in support of Cobb.

Okay, so here are the stories I have heard:

In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.

In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.

In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)

In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.

In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.

In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

So, from the referenced article, the author doesn't deny any of these things happened, but claims the parties involved MAY not have been black. I'm sorry, but switch out the parties involved with white men/women and you still have a violent sociopath. Ty Cobb may not have been racist (even though he most certainly was), but he was an extremely violent and terrible person.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Okay, so here are the stories I have heard:

In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.

In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.

In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)

In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.

In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.

In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

So, from the referenced article, the author doesn't deny any of these things happened, but claims the parties involved MAY not have been black. I'm sorry, but switch out the parties involved with white men/women and you still have a violent sociopath. Ty Cobb may not have been racist (even though he most certainly was), but he was an extremely violent and terrible person.

Actually, the author does NOT claim those involved MAY not have been black. Quite the opposite.

"It describes three people who fought with Cobb—a night watchman, a bellhop, and a butcher—as being black.... Looking into census reports, birth certificates, and contemporary newspaper accounts, I found that all three of the black fighters cited by Charles Alexander were in fact white. Yes, Cobb had also fought with two black men during his life, but those fights didn’t have racial overtones, and Cobb—who had an extremely thin skin—fought with many more white men."

The above are some of the examples you cite to 'prove' that he was racist, yet if they were not black, how could they be attributed to racist acts. In addition, the author provides some evidence (or justification) that Cobb may have been more color-blind than most.

Similarly, you tout the handicapped fan as having no hands, yet the article is as follows: "And yes, he once went into the stands and repeatedly punched a man who had been heckling him for more than a year, and who turned out to have less than the full complement of fingers—hence the story of him attacking a handicapped fan." (for some reason I remember seeing he was missing 3 fingers on one hand, but can't find the source)

So the bottom line is the referenced article is REFUTING some of the stories you tout (as racist) and clarifying the incident with the man who "didn't have hands", and not 'adding to them' as you claim. While Cobb wasn't a saint by any means, I believe the title of the thread still has merit based on the referenced article.

Either you have an incredible memory to provide such detailed examples, or you have reference material. If the latter, please provide what you are using as your source of information.

[Hankphenom]

You need to listen to the Sam Crawford and Davy Jones segments of the audio version of "The Glory Of Their Times." You can speculate that there was jealousy and resentment when they talk about Cobb, but to think that all those stories and the tone of their voices when they talk about him was manufactured for the interviews defies credulity. I've no doubt Cobb did many good things in his life and had a good side to him, but there's also no doubt he could be a real bastard, too.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Okay, so here are the stories I have heard:

In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.

In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.

In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)

In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.

In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.

In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

So, from the referenced article, the author doesn't deny any of these things happened, but claims the parties involved MAY not have been black. I'm sorry, but switch out the parties involved with white men/women and you still have a violent sociopath. Ty Cobb may not have been racist (even though he most certainly was), but he was an extremely violent and terrible person.

He may not have been a racist(even though he most certainly was) is such a duplicitous remark. To be frank with you, my our standards today, All of them were racist and violent. The Christian Gentlemen himself got into a fistfight in the stands at one time. To say with such certainty any of the three accusations you have made in your last paragraph is conjecture at best. I disagree with your assessment. Ty Cobb was a bonafide Superstar who like many superstars today may or may not have been put is very difficult positions. So many stories have been refuted by evidence that I find it hard to believe the possibly true ones completely. We will never know what kind of man he truly was and many an Author will make countless dollars debating it. I prefer to view Ty Cobb as a misunderstood Anti-Hero who had a lot of good mixed with a lot of bad.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Okay, so here are the stories I have heard:

In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.

In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.

In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)

In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.

In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.

In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

So, from the referenced article, the author doesn't deny any of these things happened, but claims the parties involved MAY not have been black. I'm sorry, but switch out the parties involved with white men/women and you still have a violent sociopath. Ty Cobb may not have been racist (even though he most certainly was), but he was an extremely violent and terrible person.

So where are these stories from exactly? I don't believe them for a minute....

[Tabe]

Looks like a list from reddit.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Taylor- I would question your "research", contemporary accounts disagree with your findings. As I have said before Charles Alexander's reputation as a historian and researcher are impeccable. The most irritating thing for historians is to have authors discount actual contemporary accounts by reading between the lines to "revise" history to their liking. Not saying you did this but history is history.

About three years ago on the SABR Deadball Era discussion group the then director of the Cobb Museum tried to "revise" history and he was ripped to shreds by over 20 historians including John Thorn.

Cobb was one of the greatest players of all time and must have had some wonderful qualities but the facts are that he was very troubled and had a violent nature. The real puzzle is that he showed in his investments and business dealings that he had a wonderful mind just never able to control his anger.

As far as him receiving special treatment by the courts, and police, just look at today's athletes?

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Taylor- I would question your "research", contemporary accounts disagree with your findings. As I have said before Charles Alexander's reputation as a historian and researcher are impeccable. The most irritating thing for historians is to have authors discount actual contemporary accounts by reading between the lines to "revise" history to their liking. Not saying you did this but history is history.

About three years ago on the SABR Deadball Era discussion group the then director of the Cobb Museum tried to "revise" history and he was ripped to shreds by over 20 historians including John Thorn.

Cobb was one of the greatest players of all time and must have had some wonderful qualities but the facts are that he was very troubled and had a violent nature. The real puzzle is that he showed in his investments and business dealings that he had a wonderful mind just never able to control his anger.

As far as him receiving special treatment by the courts, and police, just look at today's athletes?

Mike,

Read the Leerhsen book, he does a good job and perhaps in your judgement of Alexander an uphill battle at defaming his theories on Cobb. He gives definitive proof on responses from Alexander himself when Leerhsen questioned where he received information on the three fights.

Alexander admitted to Leerhsen he didn't have factual information on, nor did he research the race of the individuals in question. Which in hindsight would presumably be an assumption. And if you can earn respect off of assumptions well shit I'll write a book my own off of them.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Mike,

Read the Leerhsen book, he does a good job and perhaps in your judgement of Alexander an uphill battle at defaming his theories on Cobb. He gives definitive proof on responses from Alexander himself when Leerhsen questioned where he received information on the three fights.

Alexander admitted to Leerhsen he didn't have factual information on, nor did he research the race of the individuals in question. Which in hindsight would presumably be an assumption. And if you can earn respect off of assumptions well shit I'll write a book my own off of them.

What kind of gun did Alexander claim was used to kill Cobb?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by byrone

What kind of gun did Alexander claim was used to kill Cobb?

Yeah. That was one thing Alexander got wrong, indicating it was a shotgun, yet all the contemporary accounts indicate it was a revolver (or some form of handgun). It appears the 'shotgun' account was first encountered in Stump's TRUE magazine article, though there could be an earlier first reference that appeared in the mid '50s.

To be fair, Alexander got many (most?) things right, and one mistake doesn't prove others, but it should caution those to trust everything as written. His book was a product of the '80s in that he had no where near the access to the information that is available today online (court records, birth certificates, newspaper accounts, etc), which makes this type of research a bit easier and more comprehensive (assuming you filter out the noise of the internet).

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Mike,

Read the Leerhsen book, he does a good job and perhaps in your judgement of Alexander an uphill battle at defaming his theories on Cobb. He gives definitive proof on responses from Alexander himself when Leerhsen questioned where he received information on the three fights.

Alexander admitted to Leerhsen he didn't have factual information on, nor did he research the race of the individuals in question. Which in hindsight would presumably be an assumption. And if you can earn respect off of assumptions well shit I'll write a book my own off of them.

A big +1 here also,

Larry

[Pilot172000]

So just throwing this out there.... General consensus who is a worse villain Ty Cobb or Al Stump???

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

Taylor- I would question your "research", contemporary accounts disagree with your findings. As I have said before Charles Alexander's reputation as a historian and researcher are impeccable.

Might be the case but Alexander's work on Cobb is terrible. He made assumptions (when facts were available), got stuff wrong, and relied on Al Stump. These are not the things an "impeccable" historian does.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Might be the case but Alexander's work on Cobb is terrible. He made assumptions (when facts were available), got stuff wrong, and relied on Al Stump. These are not the things an "impeccable" historian does.

+1.

Regards,

Larry