scam alert: fake psa cards from ebay seller "cardregistry"

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

but doesnt a hologram and a sonic seal --whatever that is-- seem sorta 90s nostalgic?

now that you put it so bluntly...it sure does.

especially the hologram part.

[4815162342]

The new holders are much better, no?

[ezez420]

There was a case in Colorado a couple of years ago. This old guy named Mayo M got caught up for selling the fake cards on craigslist. The ahole down in mexico advertises on CL looking for greedy people to sell his fake goods. Then greedy seller is caught holding the bag. He had a psa registry called the mayo macneil collection of serial numbers.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

The new holders are much better, no?

apparently not considering the 52 mantle 8 that was noted....

I hadn't heard about it, but can anyone post pics?

i'd like to see the case in it's entirety if so...

[doug.goodman]

If I was PSA I would institute a team to tackle this issue...

That's a good idea

... before it damages their credibility and hurts the hobby irreparably.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Laughing out loud

Cough, cough.

[Tennis13]

Let's say they are motivated by money. I can think of three ways off the top of my head to turn your laughing -- and I have my strong opinions about CLCT as well -- into an even greater profit/growth industry for them.

I mean, the pricing models one could come up with to make money off their grading oligopoly is insane. The reason you laugh -- they are like an airline comany-- is because they are in an oligopolistic market. Near monopoly, perhaps.

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know. Let's assume they are able to focus on the business rather than the scurrying cockroaches coming out of the corners, the evolution of fraud is an evolution of profitability for an industry leader. They could change some sort of pricing models here, introduce a new technology and boom, growth and margins are manufactured overnight.

[botn]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

apparently not considering the 52 mantle 8 that was noted....

I hadn't heard about it, but can anyone post pics?

i'd like to see the case in it's entirety if so...

Here ya go...

1952TMantle.jpg

[1952boyntoncollector]

Still no half grade fakes reported...POP is so low..good luck with a PSA 8.5 Mantle 1952 Topps with an owner registry..

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

Let's say they are motivated by money. I can think of three ways off the top of my head to turn your laughing -- and I have my strong opinions about CLCT as well -- into an even greater profit/growth industry for them.

I mean, the pricing models one could come up with to make money off their grading oligopoly is insane. The reason you laugh -- they are like an airline comany-- is because they are in an oligopolistic market. Near monopoly, perhaps.

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know. Let's assume they are able to focus on the business rather than the scurrying cockroaches coming out of the corners, the evolution of fraud is an evolution of profitability for an industry leader. They could change some sort of pricing models here, introduce a new technology and boom, growth and margins are manufactured overnight.

They already have an overwhelming market share. Where is the growth going to come from?

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They already have an overwhelming market share. Where is the growth going to come from?

Without giving away a very easy business model secret, currently you send in a card -- whether it is 1990, 2000 or 2016 -- and they almost never touch it again.

Meanwhile, the end consumer is buying and trading authenticated slabs with sonic sealing and holograms. Sort of like running your PC on Windows 95, no? Or do people even use PCs anymore? Amazing how services/products can become obsolete so fast.....I do wonder if there is a business opportunity there.....(It's HUGE given the brand....and it would allow them to perhaps undo some prior wrongs).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Perhaps, although they have already hit up the "installed base" to use an analogy for half grades, and I suspect quite a number of folks have sent in cards for the newest generation of holder even if it isn't much of an improvement in terms of security. Not sure how many times you can go back to that well.

[Tennis13]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I suspect quite a number of folks have sent in cards for the newest generation of holder even if it isn't much of an improvement in terms of security.

Start by making it a "revolutionary improvement", use diamond, casino, jewelry and other industries with high fraud problems as a template, and invest $1 mln or $3 mln there, as opposed to burning that money on some online swap meet....but i digress......I do think the lack of security evolution is a big problem, but also a very reliable, recurring revenue generator for this business.

The hologram and sonic seal, based on this example, seems like it's not reliable anymore. And if I want to ensure my $1000 baseball card is legit, I am willing to pay a small premium for the revolutionary grading going forward. And if I need to sell one with the old holder, well, I sure do hope the hologram and the sonic seal are good enough.....or else......cha ching.

[begsu1013]

can see a tad of frosting in that top right hand corner of the mantle, so it maaaaay be a little bit securer, i guess.

it's certainly a lil more noticeable than what was on the one i purchased.

does anyone here know anything about the sonic welding process?

curious if you can re-weld a previous welded spot?

is the cloudy spot/corner from the case being cracked or is that simply some adhesive that has clouded up.

they used to just use krazy glue and it was extremely easy to spot...

if it's the adhesive, then they've gotten much better at concealing that part of it....

edit: imagining a mental picture of all these guys down in mehico setting up test runs w. all sorts of glue imported from all over the place

[r0ck8ott0m]

That's disturbing .... I guess my confusion would be that there isn't really a way to ever know that your card that you have in hand is the initial card that was graded unless you "re-submit" the already graded card? Because who ever was doing this scam are removing the card with a lesser of a grade card and we would never ever know because the serial number will always be correct..... This sucks. I buy a lot of graded cards from psa too. So why were you sending in the already graded mantle anyways? Just wondering.

[begsu1013]

condensed version from earlier:

was gonna send it in for a reholder, but then when I tried to add to the registry and the guy that owned the legit one said he still had it, psa sent me a label and asked to send it in on their dime.

here's your cue 1952boytoncollector... ; )

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

I know why you laugh. Trust me, I know.

No, actually, you do not.

[glynparson]

The holder was not even sealed. I find it more than a little coincidental an auction company owned by PSA's biggest rival was selling a terribly bad holdered Mantle. Everyone I have spoken to that saw the card in person said there is no way that it should have made it to Bill's catalog. They said it is nowhere near the quality of the older slabbed Mexico fakes.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Josh, very unlikely in my opinion. Not cost effective for the scammers. You could be dealing with some minor improvements by the more usual card doctor crowd, but not this stuff. Even at that pretty unlikely I would think.

That's pretty good then. Glad to hear that it is unlikely that someone would go to the lengths to do that to those cards.

I guess I can breathe a little easier

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

The holder was not even sealed. I find it more than a little coincidental an auction company owned by PSA's biggest rival was selling a terribly bad holdered Mantle. Everyone I have spoken to that saw the card in person said there is no way that it should have made it to Bill's catalog. They said it is nowhere near the quality of the older slabbed Mexico fakes.

I don't understand the conspiracy theory here. It sounds to me like Bill just missed it.

[glynparson]

What I have been told by people with way more knowledge of the situation than either of us have. And I had no reason to believe I was being lied to at the time.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

What I have been told by people with way more knowledge of the situation than either of us have. And I had no reason to believe I was being lied to at the time.

So what are your sources suggesting happened? Bill sees a bad half million dollar card, and Beckett tells him not to pull it so as to embarrass PSA?? Help me understand what Bill's affiliation with Beckett has to do with this?

[Leon]

I guess our guy in Mexico? (hi Copperfield) is still at it. Yes, he goes by Copperfield.
He interrupted my lunch pizza buffet to call me a little while ago. i had seen about 5 stupid looking calls (Magic jack, 5 numbers) on my cell and didn't know what it was, it was him.
He says he will never get caught as he is too good. I told him good for him, karma will catch up. He said he hasn't had bad karma and I said so what. At any rate, I guess he is still at it the way he was before. I ended our call as I was sitting in front of the restaurant talking to him and was really getting hungry. He is brash.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I guess our guy in Mexico? (hi Copperfield) is still at it. Yes, he goes by Copperfield.
He interrupted my lunch pizza buffet to call me a little while ago. i had seen about 5 stupid looking calls (Magic jack, 5 numbers) on my cell and didn't know what it was, it was him.
He says he will never get caught as he is too good. I told him good for him, karma will catch up. He said he hasn't had bad karma and I said so what. At any rate, I guess he is still at it the way he was before. I ended our call as I was sitting in front of the restaurant talking to him and was really getting hungry. He is brash.

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.

I just hope he doesn't interrupt anymore lunches. I don't generally collect high grade so don't worry about his antics. High grade collectors should be aware. ......drum roll...no, Peter, I won't show it again. (for now )

[jburl]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I can't blame him for being brash, this has been going on for years, he has probably made a sheetload of money, he doubtless ontinues to do so, and as far as we know nobody is anywhere close to catching him.

I find the imagery created by a "sheetload of money" very amusing.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

I just hope he doesn't interrupt anymore lunches. I don't generally collect high grade so don't worry about his antics. High grade collectors should be aware. ......drum roll...no, Peter, I won't show it again. (for now )

It is the prefect crime. Most of those buying will never know what they bought is likely an altered card in a resealed holder. No checks and balances at PSA at this point. Collectors have to fend for themselves. You can buy from reputable places but the 52 Mantle PSA 8 got by Goodwin and it was only by luck the card was identified and pulled from the auction. A near 500K disaster.

Come on Leon show the E90-1 Young one more time. Peter deserves it!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

can see a tad of frosting in that top right hand corner of the mantle, so it maaaaay be a little bit securer, i guess.

it's certainly a lil more noticeable than what was on the one i purchased.

does anyone here know anything about the sonic welding process?

curious if you can re-weld a previous welded spot?

is the cloudy spot/corner from the case being cracked or is that simply some adhesive that has clouded up.

they used to just use krazy glue and it was extremely easy to spot...

if it's the adhesive, then they've gotten much better at concealing that part of it....

edit: imagining a mental picture of all these guys down in mehico setting up test runs w. all sorts of glue imported from all over the place

Here's some info.
Slabs are most likely polycarbonate (Lexan)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasonic_welding

Rewelding in a different fashion or even the same might be possible, but would be a bit of a challenge.

Assuming a take of 150K a month or better, there are very few technological hurdles you could put in the way that would be all that hard to defeat.
Even the treasury believes that counterfeit notes are available very soon after the release of the new designs.

Steve B

[mrcardfan]

Just read the entire thread all I can say OMG. I have some graded cards in the new PSA holders and I don't see how they can be tampered with . The older holders you can pop them open and reseal easy like that 67 mantle . But that 52 mantle 8 not sure those can be opened or resealed or tampered with.

[sportscardtheory]

This stuff is scary. Makes me want to stop buying any PSA cards and stick with "buy the card not the grade" only in BGS holders, which seem damn near fake-proof and tamper-proof. Seems like FAR less risk.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

This stuff is scary. Makes me want to stop buying any PSA cards and stick with "buy the card not the grade" only in BGS holders, which seem damn near fake-proof and tamper-proof. Seems like FAR less risk.

If you think they can spot altered cards as well as PSA and SGC, go for it.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by mrcardfan

Just read the entire thread all I can say OMG. I have some graded cards in the new PSA holders and I don't see how they can be tampered with . The older holders you can pop them open and reseal easy like that 67 mantle . But that 52 mantle 8 not sure those can be opened or resealed or tampered with.

Seems to me there are differing scenarios of fraud here.

1.) cracking a PSA case, inserting a lesser grade card, then resealing the case; still same cert #, same authentic PSA label, same authentic PSA hologram
1.A). same thing above, but inserting a counterfeit card

2.) manufacturing a molded plastic case (the same as PSA's); grabbing the cert number from an existing high grade card, counterfeiting the PSA label, and inserting a lower grade card
2.A) same thing but inserting a counterfeit card

So yes, buying the card, not the holder resolves most of 1 and 2, but doesn't resolve 1A and 2A. Which gets back to my question I had earlier. Is PSA addressing the card when Bob sends back the resealed holders?

If this is an organized criminal enterprise, I would suspect it's a lot more efficient to manufacture a PSA case and copy flips, then to crack hundreds/thousands of cards and reseal. With the amount of time involved, I would assume the dollar value of these cards has be north of $1K.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If you think they can spot altered cards as well as PSA and SGC, go for it.

Clearly my point is that there is more trust that BGS didn't make a mistake on authenticity than with buying a PSA slab that could very well be completely fake and/or tampered-with. Find me one instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab and it will be the first I have ever seen/heard of.

These PSA horror stories have been ongoing for a long time now and PSA has done virtually nothing of any substance to prevent tampering/faking. I mean, holograms? Come on. To me, this doesn't bode well for their brand in general, and long-term it is due for a huge decrease as people start to realize their product is the most easily faked/tampered-with. How can you trust ANY PSA graded card when it's so easy to fake them and/or tamper with them.

My point stands. I would rather have an authentic card in a BGS holder than a PSA graded card that you have no idea whether it is real or fake/tampered with. I know BGS is an inferior TPG, but their slabs are 1,000x safer. I mean, what good is your grading reputation when the slabs you put them in can be faked and/or tampered with? It completely defeats the purpose and undermines the "sanctity" of the grade.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Clearly my point is that there is more trust that BGS didn't make a mistake on authenticity than with buying a PSA slab, that could very well be completely fake and/or tampered-with. Find me one instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab and it will be the first I have ever seen/heard of.

These PSA horror stories have been ongoing for a long time now and PSA has done virtually nothing of any substance to prevent tampering/faking. I mean, holograms? Come on. To me, this doesn't bode well for their brand in general, and long-term it is due for a huge decrease as people start to realize their product is the most easily faked/tampered-with. How can you trust ANY PSA graded card when it's so easy to fake them and/or tamper with them.

My point stands. I would rather have an authentic card in a BGS holder than a PSA graded card that you have no idea whether it is real or fake/tampered with. I know BGS is an inferior TPG, but their slabs are 1,000x safer. I mean, what good is your grading reputation when the slabs you put them in can be faked and/or tampered with? It completely defeats the purpose and undermines the "sanctity" of the grade.

The best slab in the world is worthless to me if I think the company can't spot alterations reliably.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The best slab in the world is worthless to me if I think the company can't spot alterations reliably.

And I would rather have an authentic card in a tamper-proof and fake-proof slab than a completely fake slab or a slab that was tampered with. How many BGS slabs have been faked or tampered with? Zero??? How many for PSA? Thousands upon thousands of high dollar to mega-high dollar cards. PSA's slabs are a joke. How can anyone trust ANY high dollar PSA graded card as being legit. I mean, Christ. What would stop someone from buying a high-dollar PSA card, cracking the card out, putting in a lesser card and re-selling it, all the while retaining the original card that can also be regraded and resold at a later date. It's like doubling your money. All because PSA doesn't want to pony up for fake-proof/tamper-proof slabs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

And I would rather have an authentic card in a tamper-proof and fake-proof slab than a completely fake slab or a slab that was tampered with. How many BGS slabs have been faked or tampered with? Zero??? How many for PSA? Thousands upon thousands of high dollar to mega-high dollar cards. PSA's slabs are a joke. How can anyone trust ANY high dollar PSA graded card as being legit.

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

If you can bring yourself to deny that, we are done here.

P.S. Still waiting on that ONE instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

If you can bring yourself to deny that, we are done here.

P.S. Still waiting on that ONE instance of a completely fake or tampered-with BGS slab...

I'm not denying anything. I am sure this has been going on for some time, but I really have no idea about the volume. If you do, say what you know.

[sportscardtheory]

PSA is clearly the best TPG at actual grading, but if you can't trust whether or not any of their slabs are real or un-tampered-with, and you have to run in circles trying to authenticate the freaking slabs, what good is that grading reputation. Serious question. I mean, think about that. You have to jump through hoops to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. What good is a TPG if you have to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. I get that people want to protect their investments by defending PSA, but you better start caring about this issue because it's only getting worse, which WILL affect PSA's reputation in the future, which WILL affect the value of your PSA graded cards in the future. Take heed.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Thousands upon thousands? Do you know this to be a fact?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

PSA is clearly the best TPG at actual grading, but if you can't trust whether or not any of their slabs are real or un-tampered-with, and you have to run in circles trying to authenticate the freaking slabs, what good is that grading reputation. Serious question. I mean, think about that. You have to jump through hoops to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. What good is a TPG if you have to AUTHENTICATE THE FREAKING SLABS. I get that people want to protect their investments by defending PSA, but you better start caring about this issue because it's only getting worse, which WILL affect PSA's reputation in the future, which WILL affect the value of your PSA graded cards in the future. Take heed.

It's certainly a significant concern, I am with you there. What I don't know yet is whether the guy is an artist pulling off the occasional scam on a mega card, or whether he truly has flooded the market already, or somewhere in between.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

I hope MW will comment. This came up not so long ago and it was his contention that the scammer is not using fake slabs but resealed ones.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

http://www.network54.com/Forum/15365...Post-war+board

'...PSA case to china and had hundreds of thousands reproduced for almost nothing.'

This was 8+ years ago. I mean, you have been here since 2009 and have never heard of fake and/or tampered-with PSA slabs by the thousands.

Then why in your view hasn't the market taken a hit if this is a well known fact for years? Quite to the contrary, the mega cards are in an epic upswing, no?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's certainly a significant concern, I am with you there. What I don't know yet is whether the guy is an artist pulling off the occasional scam on a mega card, or whether he truly has flooded the market already, or somewhere in between.

How can we ever truly know which PSA graded card is real and/or untampered with. This is my point. It's scary and the more I think of it, the less I want to put into PSA graded cards. I get that BGS kinda sucks as a grader, but at least their slabs can't be altered or faked. This isn't some non or minor issue, the integrity of PSA's entire brand is at stake and they aren't doing anything other than slight changes that can still be replicated by scam artists.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then why in your view hasn't the market taken a hit if this is a well known fact for years? Quite to the contrary, the mega cards are in an epic upswing, no?

I have been talking about "future" in all my posts. The upswing you speak of is great for now, but what about when the severity of the problem starts to settle-in to mainstream hive-mind. You think it will always stay a non-mainstream issue? The day it becomes main-stream, this bubble will pop and there will be many left holding the bill. And it could all be avoided if PSA simply created a tamper-proof/fake-proof slab. I mean why wouldn't they want to protect their buyers? Isn't that the entire point of TPGs, to protect consumers? This issue seems to be the exact opposite of that. No protection whatsoever. No safety.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I have been talking about "future" in all my posts. The upswing you speak of is great for now, but what about when the severity of the problem starts to settle-in to mainstream hive-mind. You think it will always stay a non-mainstream issue? The day it becomes main-stream, this bubble will pop and there will be many left holding the bill. And it could all be avoided if PSA simply created a tamper-proof/fake-proof slab.

PSA would also have to prevent bad cards from simply being reholdered. I am not sure what level of scrutiny cards have received to date which have been sent in for the new improved holder.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA would also have to prevent bad cards from simply being reholdered. I am not sure what level of scrutiny cards have received to date which have been sent in for the new improved holder.

Good point. Even more reason to be weary, IMO. Nothing is safe at this point. They should have had real slabs a long time ago.

[mrcardfan]

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

How can we ever truly know which PSA graded card is real and/or untampered with. This is my point. It's scary and the more I think of it, the less I want to put into PSA graded cards. I get that BGS kinda sucks as a grader, but at least their slabs can't be altered or faked. This isn't some non or minor issue, the integrity of PSA's entire brand is at stake and they aren't doing anything other than slight changes that can still be replicated by scam artists.

How can we ever truly know that all of these so-called vintage cards weren't really created yesterday with a vintage press, using vintage ink on vintage cardboard? Besides, I'm pretty sure we're all living in the Matrix anyhow.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by mrcardfan

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

They may be harder to crack and reseal, but it seems like they could be faked, like the old slabs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mrcardfan

the new holder PSA came out with in 2014 is suppose to be tamper proof. its harder to get apart then a BGS slab. only way to open a new PSA holder is to completely destroy the holder. I seriously doubt this scam artist that's doing this can reseal a new PSA holder with it looking like bobs 67 mantle. I am pretty confident buying expensive cards in the newer PSA holders.

So explain the PSA 8 Mantle pulled down from Goodwin?