Looking for a 2nd example of the T206 Cobb (bat off shoulder) / Black LENOX card

tedzan · #1 02-20-2016, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MW1

Ted,

I have great respect for you but I think you need to get your money back. I was the one who helped identify the bogus T206 Red Hindu Mathewson (and removed it from the market) and this card (the Cobb in question) bears many of the same signs of being re-backed. In fact, I would say the job that was done was quite sloppy. Look closely and you'll see evidence on both the right and left edges on front that the reverse side is larger and overlaps the obverse in several areas. Also, the artificial wear that was added is ridiculous. No legitimate T206s, even those with advanced wear, have edges like that.

I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this subject....I have never seen a black LENOX back on this Cobb ; and, I have been collecting T206's since Bill Heitman published
his famous book "The Monster". Furthermore, more than a dozen long-time serious T206 collectors tell me the same.

Yet, certain websites claim this Cobb front/back combo has been "confirmed".

If this Cobb that Art M. has posted is as you (and some others) suspect a "fake", then my original contention questioning the existence of this Cobb is justified.

In any event, I have a better understanding now as to why this Cobb with a black LENOX back is claimed to exist.

Incidentally,
I really appreciated Art showing us this Cobb. He and I have been trading T206's since back in 2006, and this time he just got a generous advantage on our latest trade.

Take care, and my regards to Brian

TED Z
.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 02-20-2016, 09:27 AM

One wonders if PSA and/or SGC deemed it altered before it ended up in a Beckett holder.

Pat R · #3 02-20-2016, 10:35 AM

I still don't see how anyone can say the Cobb is re-backed based on the scans.
The card is in rough shape and shows wear that is consistent with many
cards in that condition. Here's a card in better condition that shows similar
wear on the corner and edges.

MW1 · #4 02-20-2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

I still don't see how anyone can say the Cobb is re-backed based on the scans.
The card is in rough shape and shows wear that is consistent with many
cards in that condition.

No, it clearly does not. The edges on your card simply do not compare.

RCMcKenzie · #5 02-20-2016, 01:04 PM

Part of my opinion was based upon the thought that a tpg could easily see a re-backed or re-fronted card in hand with a loop, but y'all have stated that they have already had many slip past them.
This card still looks like a beater with border chipping from the small scan to me, but Leon and Michael may very well be correct. Seems like the would-be forgers would have wanted to make one in better condition if they wanted to make one, but who knows in this hobby..Take care, Rob.

Luke · #6 02-20-2016, 03:20 PM

The three main reasons I think it is re-backed are:

1. The left edge - (it looks like the left edge was scraped across concrete or something, which is what you would do if you wanted to hide the fact that the front and back were different pieces of cardboard, and didn't align perfectly).

2. The back has a number of spots of staining, all near the edges. It looks to me like some spots have staining where the back had more wear and as a result the paper is thinner. The adhesive used to bind front to back may be showing through the thinner spots on the back, leaving a stain.

3. The wear just doesn't look natural. The edges on the back look like they were artifically worn with sandpaper or something to make them too rough to detect if they are two separate pieces of paper.

I'm by no means an expert on the topic, but that's what it looks like to me.

glynparson · #7 02-20-2016, 04:03 PM

I as per usual agree with Mr. Wentz. I am not 100% sure but pretty close to it. would love to see in hand. Also for the record I do not think BVG/BGS is even remotely in the same league as SGC or even PSA at catching advanced alterations and even non advanced trimming. Just my opinion, I still respect Leon, but I think his friendship with the guys at Beckett color his opinion on their skill level.

tedzan · #8 02-21-2016, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

Part of my opinion was based upon the thought that a tpg could easily see a re-backed or re-fronted card in hand with a loop, but y'all have stated that they have already had many slip past them.

Take care, Rob.

Hi Rob

It's been approx. a dozen years since these re-fronted T206's surfaced into circulation.....so, many have forgotten about them. One of the
most memorable fakes was the T206 Matty (portrait) with a Red HINDU back. It was a "beauty" and it was graded by SGC.

Here's another re-fronted "beauty"....the Green Cobb with an impossible CYCLE 350 back. This fake was sold in Auction for $3000.

I could go on (and on) with a number of these fakes....but, I will leave you with how this RE-FRONTING process is usually done......

A friend of mine, who is a professional paper restorer, described to me the process of creating such "fakes" that are virtually undetectable
strictly from their physical appearance. Simply, the front of the card is very carefully removed from its back. And, the desired front image
from another card is appliqued onto that blank front of that card. Then basic paper restoring measures are used to restore the edges.

TED Z
.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 02-21-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Rob

It's been approx. a dozen years since these re-fronted T206's surfaced into circulation.....so, many have forgotten about them. One of the
most memorable fakes was the T206 Matty (portrait) with a Red HINDU back. It was a "beauty" and it was graded by SGC.

Here's another re-fronted "beauty"....the Green Cobb with an impossible CYCLE 350 back. This fake was sold in Auction for $3000.

I could go on (and on) with a number of these fakes....but, I will leave you with how this RE-FRONTING process is usually done......

A friend of mine, who is a professional paper restorer, described to me the process of creating such "fakes" that are virtually undetectable
strictly from their physical appearance. Simply, the front of the card is very carefully removed from its back. And, the desired front image
from another card is appliqued onto that blank front of that card. Then basic paper restoring measures are used to restore the edges.

TED Z
.

It seems that in this hobby, anyplace there is demand, there is a card doctor (or purveyor of fake autographs/memorabilia) to fill it. Sad.

MW1 · #10 02-20-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this subject....I have never seen a black LENOX back on this Cobb ; and, I have been collecting T206's since Bill Heitman published
his famous book "The Monster". Furthermore, more than a dozen long-time serious T206 collectors tell me the same.

Yet, certain websites claim this Cobb front/back combo has been "confirmed".

If this Cobb that Art M. has posted is as you (and some others) suspect a "fake", then my original contention questioning the existence of this Cobb is justified.

In any event, I have a better understanding now as to why this Cobb with a black LENOX back is claimed to exist.

Incidentally,
I really appreciated Art showing us this Cobb. He and I have been trading T206's since back in 2006, and this time he just got a generous advantage on our latest trade.

Take care, and my regards to Brian

TED Z
.

Ted,

I think we're on the same page here. If there's a legitimate black Lenox Cobb out there, I'd like to see it. My feeling is that this card is the one that has been catalogued by a number of websites.

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