Baseball cards of HOFers as managers/coaches

[jason.1969]

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

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[irv]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

I took it to someone great with faces. She put it as less than 5% likely that the 52T and 54T Herman are the same guy (even two years aged) and less than 10% likely that the 52T Herman and 52T Williams are the same guy. A true mystery.

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Interesting!

[Volod]

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Volod

To me, it is almost certainly Williams in both photos. Look at the earlobes and the corners of the mouth - those features are identical in the Williams shots, but much different in Herman's images. From what I have read about Herman, he wasn't the kind of guy who would go out of his way to look at his cards, or care what was on them. And, as common players, neither guy's mixed up card pics would likely have drawn much notice, in 1952 or even years later. So now, a sharp-eyed Net54'er points out the mistake - I don't think the reaction will be any more than a few yawns among vintage collectors.

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

[irv]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Well, I never said one way or the other that you were wrong, I just wasn't sure, based on what I said prior, that this likely would have been documented somewhere before?

The more I look the more confused I get if both are Williams, or if that is in fact actually Herman in the pic/card I posted?

Not sure where this is going to go, but I must say, if in fact both are Williams, this must be one of the biggest error cards ever produced.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

...that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Volod

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

Just watched this on You Tube. Pitch was outside.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw0w9rhNtCk

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Volod

Williams was smiling just like that after he famously hoodwinked Johnny Bench in the eighth inning of the third game of the '72 WS. With two out, Reds runners on second and third, and a full count on Bench, Williams went to the mound and ordered Rollie Fingers to give Bench a free pass, but secretly instructed Gene Tenace to dive back behind the plate as Fingers threw strike three down the middle to a shocked Bench. Managerial acumen like that is what put Williams in the Hall.

He didn't look fooled to me on the youtube clip, just that he thought the pitch was outside. Which it was. He looks like any other batter sizing up a pitch.

[Volod]

Ok, guys, you want to see some outside pitches called strikes, take a look at the umpiring in the '95 WS that benefitted Maddox and Glavine...sheesh

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Finally, someone agrees!!! I have to laugh at all the people who have visited this thread and said it's not Dick Williams. I am very close to 100% sure it is him, but the naysayers will continue to pile on. I just don't get it.

It's also important to note that the cards aren't actual photographs, they are artistic interpretations of photographs, so they aren't perfect likenesses of the players, but they are very close. It's plain as day to me that the Herman card features the same person in the Williams card. All the features of his face, (except for a bit of pudginess, which could simply be the result of the photo being taken from a bad angle from below his face), eyes, ears, mouth, hair, chin, etc. point to Williams. And that smile and general appearance of a very happy person is quite consistent between the two pics. Plus, most of us were familiar with Dick WIlliams in the 70's, so we have a great sense of what he really looked like (albeit a bit older).

Forgive my inferiority but I am still not convinced. Skin color much darker on the "Herman" isn't it? Eyes look different to me.

[irv]

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

forgive my inferiority :d but i am still not convinced. Skin color much darker on the "herman" isn't it? Eyes look different to me.

lol.