the list (of criminals) is revealed

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god.., can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god.., can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

that's actually a really good post...I remember being the get away driver when my 'friend' stole some things from 7-11, I was 16 and when he came to my car the worker from 7-11 was running after him and I drove him away to safety...its not like I was the guy from person of interest to save him....but the 7-11 guy did hit the hood of my chevy nova before I was able to move my car out of his grasp.....i didn't know he was going to the store to steal something but i had a good idea he must of stolen something when the 7-11 guy was running after him outside the store to my car..

on another note I do think I did steal a few wax packs from 7-11, maybe 1988 topps when I was a minor..not sure if it was one or two packs..i not get caught but I feel worse being the get away driver in that other participation of theft....and while I am confessing my sins, I believe the last thing i ever remember stealing was a 'switch-blade' plastic comb and key chain license plate with my name on it that I stole at the gift store in the Twin towers in new York city...

in the years since i have contributed a lot more money to charity that the gross value of the switch blade plastic comb, the key chain license plate, 2 1988 topps wax packs and the slurpee and/or candy my 'friend' took....

[Duluth Eskimo]

I don't want to fuel the fire as I appreciate the fact that Peter came forward early on and admitted fault and described the situation. For those that were not in the hobby then, although I did not participate in this action and have only auctioned one item through an AH, I can tell you this was very common during that era and today. Everyone wanted that BIG money, but no one wanted to sell their item without a reserve. Not that I agree with it, just a fact.

The one thing I think Al is referring to is that the change in the story smells a little. As someone who hears a lot of stories in my career, it sounded like this to me also.

My immediate thought was, why change the story? To me, it reads like you are deflecting the crime. As an attorney you take an oath, and an action you initially described could land an attorney in front of an ethics board or be sanctioned.

In the land of baseball cards and memorabilia, it's no big deal and just wording. Although, in the real world the consequences could be very great. I may be mistaken and could be off course, but either way it's your explanation.

Others mentioned as I did in an earlier post, this was only two years of disclosed records from one auction house. If you think that list was long, the truth in the hobby would probably scare the hell out of the common collector. Most "veterans" assumed this was the case in most of these "big" auctions.

What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

What Peter is "admitting" doing or participating in is the equivalent of speeding at the Indy 500. I haven't seen anyone even attempting to clear their name from these incidents when they would normally be on the board answering a question within the hour. Although, it's hard to explain the unexplainable.

Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Exactly. Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

And let's not fool ourselves, every one of those SOB's on the wrong side of the list who isn't already in prison is following this thread very closely.

Dan,
Glad I wasnt the only one who named REAL names!!! And yes Peter if they come on and explain themselves I will also ask questions and be the same SOB I was to you...

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Where is JC Clarke who had been very active on this forum previous to this list coming out? Where is Ken Goldin who quite clearly is reading this? Can we get a statement from Huggins & Scott on the current employment of Jay Dyer who features very prominently on that list.

JC deserves his own thread here, considering he was an active member for so many years. Please explain yourself, JC. Some of the people you cheated out of their money are board members. Do you still consider yourself a member of net54? (He is definitely reading this thread, btw)

More importantly, a lot of these scumbags are still in business today. Who would still do business with Ken Goldin or Kevin Keating? Lots of you. That's why none of these guys will get any consequences for any of their fraudulent activities, other than getting rich.

There are a lot of misunderstandings and incorrect beliefs about the list. Maybe we can clear some of that up at some point. I think it would really help people get a better understanding about all of this and stop pushing for it to be swept under the rug like it's no big deal.

-Ryan