the list (of criminals) is revealed

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.

Question will be coming.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Question will be coming.

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

[1880nonsports]

edited to allow this overall serious discussion to stay on point

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

Peter,
My guess is that you wont answer the last part of my question on the grounds that it might incriminate you.. Or in other words plead the 5th...

[Peter_Spaeth]

,

[nsaddict]

Does Al have a last name?

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea why you are obsessed with me, but I came on here perfectly willing to be transparent and I then did my best to clarify your confusion about my answer and Ron's. Perhaps you should ask some questions of the people who are silent. If it's lawyers you don't like, there are some on that list. One has 50 plus transactions in which he was the consignor and his employee was the bidder.

Peter,
I have no obsession with you ,personally I could care less about you but there are 2 type of people I hate cheats,and liars. And you my friend have fit that mold. You refuse to answer a simple question and that leads me to believe that maybe you have more to hide. Wow kinda sucks to be on the other end of the questioning doesnt it. And Peter people see that you do the dance around the questions and I do believe that many think very differently of you now. For god sake Peter just answer the question I posed maybe it will do you some good to get it off your chest!!
Al S@meo.ne

[whiteymet]

Originally Posted by batsballsbases

Thats what I wanted to know.
So again to be clear YOU gave ron your account and password with your knowledge and he acted from his computer and placed the shill. Thats a yes or no answer councilor....

Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by whiteymet

Al:

Please help me understand why it is so important for you to know if Peter gave Ron his acct info and password and Ron bid from his own computer.

Is there a difference I am missing?

Fred McK.ie

Fred,
As I posted he states one thing and then Ron states another. Just wanted the real truth but as I see that isnt going to happen. Fred Im done asking let others carry the torch. If not then you ask him why he wont answer my simple question. But as Leon pointed out the question was asked and answered in a round about way. I believe the word was semantics.(Did I spell that right for you rob) So I will leave it with that.

[slidekellyslide]

Al, it seems pretty clear to me that he took the blame for making the shill bid, then Ron said he made the bid with Peter's account and Peter admitted this is how it went down, but he didn't want to throw Ron under the bus.

From the looks of it this appears to be one guy who wanted his investment protected, suckered a friend into using his account to do so (still bad, still shilling).

Now there are a bunch of guys on that list with MULTIPLE acts of shilling, one of them a major auction house owner who obviously is reading this thread and giving information about people posting here, but is too much of coward to come on here and explain himself.

[smokelessjoe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Fair question let me clarify. Ron placed the bids, as he stated. When I first posted -- as Ron also stated -- I did not want to try to distance myself from/blame Ron because he is a friend, so I did not emphasize that distinction. I believe this answers Al as well.

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

I think Peter_Spaeth answered the question... But part of the answer leads me to believe that Ron placed multiple bids using Peters account because Peter states: "Ron placed the bids"...

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

[68Hawk]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No there was only one lot involved I am sure. 9 years later I really don't recall what the bidding was on the one lot it may well only have been one bid and I misspoke.

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god.., can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 68Hawk

While my name holds zero gravitas - at least on this board, my kids think I'm a god.., can I ask this?

Daniel Enright

I'm surprised the events we are discussing are murky at all for you, and I understand the 9 years part. You were asked to participate in an illegal and surely uncomfortable for-you situation, one you didn't repeat, and from my reading of your posts over the years, its an act that wouldn't have sat right. Generally I feel your call on this board is for the greater good, the moral and ethical right to win out.
So such an even should have seared itself into you mind.
I'm 47, and at age 15 stole a Penthouse magazine from a store, getting caught on the way out. I can see it all very easily right now, my school uniform, which side of my jacket I put the magazine behind, the point at which the owner called for me to stop as I sidled out the door. I had to go to the police station, have my mum pick me up.....I never stole a thing again in my life.
I can't un-remember it.

The part of your story, and what happens to all stories if they contain any innacuracies, is as you tell them over and over aspects that don't jive start to stand out.

Originally you described the action as a single bid, meant to act as a minimum amount your friend Ron would accept. I think you allowed the number of bids, and how you framed it in your mind as a minimum, to mitigate the whole sordid action to yourself. Ron was simply protecting himself from being ripped off by a low offer.

You just now said in your last post, you are unsure of how many bids were placed?
You can see how that would change everything, from setting a minimum to an active effort to shill up another bidder.
I also have a feeling you would have followed the auction more than just casually, to know how it turned out and because it was a moral car crash - it would have been hard to avert your eyes.

Is there a chance you more accurately remember how the item was bid on, on reflection?
Did you talk to Ron afterwards, tell him how uncomfortable it made you feel, that it was once off?
Knowing AH rules of the time and now, I would also think this memory would have followed you for years, especially as a lawyer and knowing what could happed to your life's work if you were found to have acted illegally......

I realize it's easier to talk in modified short responses as you have so far, and I actually am with you in what you've said so far about at least fronting the pitchforks while others pathetically hide their involvement.
But it would be helpful to believe you as a fellow human being, if you took a few more words to tell the story so far untold.
About what the act meant to you then and now, and whether you are really so equivocal in judging it today?
You knew it was wrong then, otherwise you would have asked the AH to simply advertise what was being done and be transparent about it......so why so gray today?

that's actually a really good post...I remember being the get away driver when my 'friend' stole some things from 7-11, I was 16 and when he came to my car the worker from 7-11 was running after him and I drove him away to safety...its not like I was the guy from person of interest to save him....but the 7-11 guy did hit the hood of my chevy nova before I was able to move my car out of his grasp.....i didn't know he was going to the store to steal something but i had a good idea he must of stolen something when the 7-11 guy was running after him outside the store to my car..

on another note I do think I did steal a few wax packs from 7-11, maybe 1988 topps when I was a minor..not sure if it was one or two packs..i not get caught but I feel worse being the get away driver in that other participation of theft....and while I am confessing my sins, I believe the last thing i ever remember stealing was a 'switch-blade' plastic comb and key chain license plate with my name on it that I stole at the gift store in the Twin towers in new York city...

in the years since i have contributed a lot more money to charity that the gross value of the switch blade plastic comb, the key chain license plate, 2 1988 topps wax packs and the slurpee and/or candy my 'friend' took....

[batsballsbases]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Let me guess the question...

In two separated postings Peter_Spaeth stated that he himself had placed a bid on Ron's item - but in a later post Peter_Spaeth states that he allowed Ron to use his personal account to place a "Reserve Bid".

The question: Peter, which is it? Did you place a "reserve bid" for Ron or did Ron use your account to place his own Reserve Bid?

Shawn England

Shawn that is exactly what I want to know....