Is Dahlen a lock ????? VS others at position why not ??

darwinbulldog · #1 12-08-2015, 02:20 PM

Reasonable people can disagree on how big the Hall should be. If you want to limit it to the top 150, then sure, leave out Dahlen and Gossage, but no way can I think of 150 guys better than Blyleven. Not saying he's in the first tier or anything like that, but I think he easily makes it into one of the first 150 slots, probably in the top half.

Cozumeleno · #2 12-08-2015, 02:39 PM

That's interesting - and part of the reason these lists are fun. There are a lot of good opinions on it.

If I take a list of some of the great pitchers, like the all-time wins list from B-R, I can probably cherry pick at least 30-35 pitchers ahead of Blyleven from here. I might take him ahead of a few guys that have more wins, but guys below him like Gibson, Marichal, Roberts, Palmer, Feller, Pedro, Koufax, and others probably leapfrog him for me. That's before you even get to any position guys.

I'd be hard-pressed to put him into the top 150 of all-time and even more so the upper half of that. But that's why these sorts of things are great to look at and I know people have a far better opinion of him than I do.

packs · #3 12-08-2015, 02:41 PM

It doesn't matter to me how good a HOF player was when it comes to voting. If you're not a historian and you consult Wikipedia for advice on how to cast your vote, you shouldn't be voting in this type of election.

Topps206 · #4 12-08-2015, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Reasonable people can disagree on how big the Hall should be. If you want to limit it to the top 150, then sure, leave out Dahlen and Gossage, but no way can I think of 150 guys better than Blyleven. Not saying he's in the first tier or anything like that, but I think he easily makes it into one of the first 150 slots, probably in the top half.

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

Cozumeleno · #5 12-08-2015, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

Yeah, I certainly agree that there's a better case for him than some already in. But that's sort of the problem as I see it. I think errors have already been made in voting people in, so instead of making the standards a little harder, we're forced to compare him with people (that may not deserve to be in) and say that's why he should be in. Next, it'll be guys like Dave Steib and Bret Saberhagen (again, both very good). If the standards keep going down, where does it really end?

Topps206 · #6 12-08-2015, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Yeah, I certainly agree that there's a better case for him than some already in. But that's sort of the problem as I see it. I think errors have already been made in voting people in, so instead of making the standards a little harder, we're forced to compare him with people (that may not deserve to be in) and say that's why he should be in. Next, it'll be guys like Dave Steib and Bret Saberhagen (again, both very good). If the standards keep going down, where does it really end?

Stieb had the highest WAR of any pitcher in the 1980s. Not a Hall of Famer, but Jack Morris gets more love than he deserves.

Saberhagen falls just shy because he didn't win that magical third Cy Young. He was third in 1994 behind Maddux and Ken Hill.

Dahlen is not only better than a lot of his contemporaries in, but judging by Sabermetrics he very well could be a top ten shortstop of all time.

Mountaineer1999 · #7 12-08-2015, 05:38 PM

Maybe they should have people knocked out of the Hall every year, if its truly the best of all time that will right some wrongs. If 2 go in, 2 come out. Dahlen and Trammell go in, Maranville and Tinker come out. Eventually you have only the best.

Cozumeleno · #8 12-08-2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

Stieb had the highest WAR of any pitcher in the 1980s. Not a Hall of Famer, but Jack Morris gets more love than he deserves.

Saberhagen falls just shy because he didn't win that magical third Cy Young. He was third in 1994 behind Maddux and Ken Hill.

Dahlen is not only better than a lot of his contemporaries in, but judging by Sabermetrics he very well could be a top ten shortstop of all time.

Oh yeah, both of those pitchers are very good. I specifically mentioned them because I know they've gotten some HOF consideration from people who think they should be in. My point in naming them was that those are a couple of guys who I think could get some consideration the more the standards are lowered.

I should add, too, that I don't necessarily believe that putting Dahlen himself in lowers the standards. I think the standards have already been lowered. My main issue with Dahlen is that for someone that's had so many chances to get in, I think it gets a little ridiculous to keep looking at them. Many different voters have had a look at Dahlen (and others) over the course of history and if he's not in by now, I almost think the Hall gets cheapened by guys getting chance after chance.

For me, it's not so much that he doesn't deserve to be in. I've read some really convincing arguments on him and it wouldn't bother me if he got in. It's that he's had so many chances and has never made it.

Topps206 · #9 12-08-2015, 11:07 PM

I would say that if he's getting chance after chance and has been for a combined 18 times these last two pre-integration meetings, he did something right. I blame the voters. Those who played against him and covered him didn't see it, but they didn't have that at their disposal that we do.

Yoda · #10 12-09-2015, 12:01 PM

I would hope if nothing else that Gil should be recognized as one of the finest right-handed first basemen in the history of the game.

rats60 · #11 12-08-2015, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Topps206

Except numbers are suggesting that Dahlen is better than many others already in. It's clear he's superior to Bobby Wallace and Joe Tinker. He's also comparable to Hughie Jennings and George Davis. Out of his top ten similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, more than half are in Cooperstown. Dahlen is also 10th all time for shortstops when it comes to JAWS.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Jennings is in because he's a manager. Davis is clearly a better hitter Ops+ 121 to 110 and fielder .940 to .927. Wallace and Tinker are questionable selections, but much better defensively .938 each to .927, but worse hitters 110 to 105 to 96. Tinker is in because of a poem. If I was to pick between Wallace and Dahlen, I'd go with the better defensive ss.

I don't trust the war or jaws numbers for Dahlen. He gets a lot of value for committing a lot more errors than his contemporaries. I don't think we can go by assists and outs for a player with so little data. It's not like we can watch film of his games and see if he had better range than the above players. He got very little support from early hof voters, many who saw him play. They didn�t feel he was a hofer. It's not like he was even getting 5 or 10% of the votes. I would trust them over a 21st century researcher trying to put a value on his career.

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