Is Dahlen a lock ????? VS others at position why not ??

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by Cozumeleno

Yeah, I certainly agree that there's a better case for him than some already in. But that's sort of the problem as I see it. I think errors have already been made in voting people in, so instead of making the standards a little harder, we're forced to compare him with people (that may not deserve to be in) and say that's why he should be in. Next, it'll be guys like Dave Steib and Bret Saberhagen (again, both very good). If the standards keep going down, where does it really end?

Stieb had the highest WAR of any pitcher in the 1980s. Not a Hall of Famer, but Jack Morris gets more love than he deserves.

Saberhagen falls just shy because he didn't win that magical third Cy Young. He was third in 1994 behind Maddux and Ken Hill.

Dahlen is not only better than a lot of his contemporaries in, but judging by Sabermetrics he very well could be a top ten shortstop of all time.

[Mountaineer1999]

Maybe they should have people knocked out of the Hall every year, if its truly the best of all time that will right some wrongs. If 2 go in, 2 come out. Dahlen and Trammell go in, Maranville and Tinker come out. Eventually you have only the best.

[Cozumeleno]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Stieb had the highest WAR of any pitcher in the 1980s. Not a Hall of Famer, but Jack Morris gets more love than he deserves.

Saberhagen falls just shy because he didn't win that magical third Cy Young. He was third in 1994 behind Maddux and Ken Hill.

Dahlen is not only better than a lot of his contemporaries in, but judging by Sabermetrics he very well could be a top ten shortstop of all time.

Oh yeah, both of those pitchers are very good. I specifically mentioned them because I know they've gotten some HOF consideration from people who think they should be in. My point in naming them was that those are a couple of guys who I think could get some consideration the more the standards are lowered.

I should add, too, that I don't necessarily believe that putting Dahlen himself in lowers the standards. I think the standards have already been lowered. My main issue with Dahlen is that for someone that's had so many chances to get in, I think it gets a little ridiculous to keep looking at them. Many different voters have had a look at Dahlen (and others) over the course of history and if he's not in by now, I almost think the Hall gets cheapened by guys getting chance after chance.

For me, it's not so much that he doesn't deserve to be in. I've read some really convincing arguments on him and it wouldn't bother me if he got in. It's that he's had so many chances and has never made it.

[Topps206]

I would say that if he's getting chance after chance and has been for a combined 18 times these last two pre-integration meetings, he did something right. I blame the voters. Those who played against him and covered him didn't see it, but they didn't have that at their disposal that we do.

[Yoda]

I would hope if nothing else that Gil should be recognized as one of the finest right-handed first basemen in the history of the game.

[Topps206]

I have no problem with that. I think he had an excellent career. He may have even been a Hall of Fame human being. He merely doesn't measure up to my criteria for Cooperstown.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I have no problem with that. I think he had an excellent career. He may have even been a Hall of Fame human being. He merely doesn't measure up to my criteria for Cooperstown.

+1. He falls just short, and is quite comparable to Norm Cash, who compiled similar stats playing most of his career in the heart of the second toughest pitcher's era ever; Graig Nettles; Dale Murphy, Rocky Colavito, Joe Carter, Don Baylor and others in the mid 300 HR class.

I would put shortstop Vern Stephens in--adequate fielder, tremendous hitter for a shortstop--going purely by recollection, 247 career HR's, almost 1200 RBI's, and a batting average of about .285. Plus three RBI titles and led the league in HR's once. 39 HR and 159 RBI in 1949 for the Red Sox, hitting cleanup behind Ted Williams. OPS of .815, which is excellent for a shortstop, and includes 4 very down years at the end of his career. A seven-time all-star, and six times finished in the top ten in the MVP voting.

Regards,

Larry

[Topps206]

I think Cash has a better argument than Hodges does.