2016 Pre-Integration Era HOF Candidates

[GaryPassamonte]

Rhett- What about the National Association? I don't think there are many, if any, players inducted whose careers were spent primarily in the NA. That is because most of these players don't meet the HOF's 10 year rule. Their years of play prior to the start of the leagues considered Major don't count. This is ludicrous. Ross Barnes is my pet peeve with this policy. I'm sick of seeing executives, managers, umpires, etc. from the 19th century getting inducted while these players are excluded for no good reason. They don't qualify as contributors because they are players. They don't qualify as players because of the 10 year rule. Apparently, no provision is considered by the HOF to rectify this exclusionary policy. That's my HOF rant for today.

[oldjudge]

Der Boss deserves to be in the HOF! Actually, I think Von der Ahe and Stovey are both deserving.

[GaryPassamonte]

I don't have a problem with any of the 19th century candidates. I think the 20th century candidates leave something to be desired.
Also, having one of the 3 categories considered for HOF inclusion span from the beginnings of baseball all the way to 1947 is not fair to the possible candidates. Two categories would be much more equitable. Maybe a category pre WWI and one post WWI to 1947 would be better.

[FirstYearCards]

HOF too watered down as it is. Pick a number (100, 200, 250 etc.) and cap it. Someone gets voted in, someone gets booted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It just gets sillier and sillier. Marty Marion hit .263 with around 1400 hits. Wes Ferrell won 193 games with a 4.04 ERA. Even adjusted for the times, he is not remotely a HOF pitcher. Here are the pitchers most comparable to Wes, according to Baseball Reference.

1.Jack Stivetts (936)
2.Sadie McMahon (915)
3.Tommy Bridges (906)
4.General Crowder (904)
5.Jouett Meekin (903)
6.Brickyard Kennedy (900)
7.Guy Bush (896)
8.Lon Warneke (894)
9.Rick Sutcliffe (891)
10.Dave Stewart (891)

[travrosty]

everybody should be in the hof.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by travrosty

everybody should be in the hof.

Hahaha. Maybe they should open the Hall of Participation.

[darwinbulldog]

Marty Marion is a joke. Ferrell might not be a HOF pitcher, but he's a reasonable candidate as a HOF player. How many other pitchers put up better numbers at the plate than they allowed from the mound? I can think of one. Factor in the batting numbers, and he was more valuable than at least a couple dozen of the already-inducted pitchers.

Wins Above Replacement? I'm glad you asked.

Sandy Koufax:
Career -- 49.0
7-year peak -- 45.2

Wes Ferrell:
Career -- 61.6
7-year peak -- 53.2

P.S. I agree that Parisian Bob is conspicuous in his absence.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It just gets sillier and sillier. Marty Marion hit .263 with around 1400 hits. Wes Ferrell won 193 games with a 4.04 ERA. Even adjusted for the times, he is not remotely a HOF pitcher. Here are the pitchers most comparable to Wes, according to Baseball Reference.

1.Jack Stivetts (936)
2.Sadie McMahon (915)
3.Tommy Bridges (906)
4.General Crowder (904)
5.Jouett Meekin (903)
6.Brickyard Kennedy (900)
7.Guy Bush (896)
8.Lon Warneke (894)
9.Rick Sutcliffe (891)
10.Dave Stewart (891)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nuff sed about Wes Ferrell, IMO.

Vote Percentage Received for the Hall of Fame:

1948: 0.8

1949: 0.9

1956: 3.6

1958: 3.4

1960: 3.0

1962: 0.6

I'll put my faith in 71 years of history since he retired. The notion that somehow someone deserving was overlooked for 71 years does not resonate.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Marty Marion is a joke. Ferrell might not be a HOF pitcher, but he's a reasonable candidate as a HOF player. How many other pitchers put up better numbers at the plate than they allowed from the mound? I can think of one. Factor in the batting numbers, and he was more valuable than at least a couple dozen of the already-inducted pitchers.

Wins Above Replacement? I'm glad you asked.

Sandy Koufax:
Career -- 49.0
7-year peak -- 45.2

Wes Ferrell:
Career -- 61.6
7-year peak -- 53.2

P.S. I agree that Parisian Bob is conspicuous in his absence.

Glenn - I outta beat you with a (nerf) fungo bat for comparing Wes Ferrell to Sandy Koufax... shows how flawed even Sabremetrics like WAR can be.

[timn1]

to play devil's advocate:

-Marion was the Ozzie Smith of his era

-Ferrell has a better record, overall, than at least a dozen HOF pitchers. The 4.04 era distorts the quality of his pitching, but his career spanned the highest-ERA era (sorry) of the whole 20th century. It's comparable to a sub-3.00 lifetime era in the deadball era. Pitchers of this period are routinely undervalued by people who can't get their heads around how much of an ERA adjustment has to be made to evaluate their careers. Ferrell's .600 winning PCT (not playing for the Yankees) is a better measure of his value.

Personally, I think Ferrell should be in, and not Marion. But there are legit arguments to be made - these nominations aren't just made at random.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, but in 48 and 49 when he was first eligible, and was voted on by people who surely had seen him pitch (and hit), and were familiar with how good he was or wasn't relative to his era, he got less than 1 percent of the vote, meaning probably 1 vote each year. He wasn't even an afterthought.

[autograf]

What's the argument against Pete Browning except AA? I'm a homer with him but he should be in.....................

[paul]

Why no consideration for George Van Haltren?

[GKreindler]

Amen, Paul.

[btcarfagno]

Marty Marion on the ballot but not Jack Glasscock?

Makes sense.

Tom C