2016 Pre-Integration Era HOF Candidates

[darwinbulldog]

Marty Marion is a joke. Ferrell might not be a HOF pitcher, but he's a reasonable candidate as a HOF player. How many other pitchers put up better numbers at the plate than they allowed from the mound? I can think of one. Factor in the batting numbers, and he was more valuable than at least a couple dozen of the already-inducted pitchers.

Wins Above Replacement? I'm glad you asked.

Sandy Koufax:
Career -- 49.0
7-year peak -- 45.2

Wes Ferrell:
Career -- 61.6
7-year peak -- 53.2

P.S. I agree that Parisian Bob is conspicuous in his absence.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It just gets sillier and sillier. Marty Marion hit .263 with around 1400 hits. Wes Ferrell won 193 games with a 4.04 ERA. Even adjusted for the times, he is not remotely a HOF pitcher. Here are the pitchers most comparable to Wes, according to Baseball Reference.

1.Jack Stivetts (936)
2.Sadie McMahon (915)
3.Tommy Bridges (906)
4.General Crowder (904)
5.Jouett Meekin (903)
6.Brickyard Kennedy (900)
7.Guy Bush (896)
8.Lon Warneke (894)
9.Rick Sutcliffe (891)
10.Dave Stewart (891)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Nuff sed about Wes Ferrell, IMO.

Vote Percentage Received for the Hall of Fame:

1948: 0.8

1949: 0.9

1956: 3.6

1958: 3.4

1960: 3.0

1962: 0.6

I'll put my faith in 71 years of history since he retired. The notion that somehow someone deserving was overlooked for 71 years does not resonate.

[Rich Klein]

I was shocked when I saw Frank McCormick on the list of 10;

Not listed as Sherry Magie is a much better choice

Rich

[darwinbulldog]

Or you could look at, you know, his statistics.

History in this case is just a euphemism for the mistakes of less informed voters. Anyway, sorry about your cognitive dissonance, but if you're ever falsely convicted and sentenced to life in prison I would hope the exonerating evidence that comes to light 25 years later isn't dismissed by people who put their faith in history.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nuff sed about Wes Ferrell, IMO.

Vote Percentage Received for the Hall of Fame:

1948: 0.8

1949: 0.9

1956: 3.6

1958: 3.4

1960: 3.0

1962: 0.6

I'll put my faith in 71 years of history since he retired. The notion that somehow someone deserving was overlooked for 71 years does not resonate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Your analogy doesn't work. There is no new evidence. Just the same record he has had since 1941. The one on which of the nearly 70 or so panels that have voted since he was eligible, he received no more than 3 percent on the scattered occasions he received any votes at all.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Your analogy doesn't work. There is no new evidence. Just the same record he has had since 1941. The one on which of the nearly 70 or so panels that have voted since he was eligible, he received no more than 3 percent on the scattered occasions he received any votes at all.

The evidence is capital murder cases isn't new either. It just doesn't always come to light before trial. The analogy is elegant and apt.

[Peter_Spaeth]

You go right on advocating for a guy with a 4.04 ERA then. You're doing a great job of convincing us that the voters of the last 70 years just didn't know what to look for. Where does Bill James rank him by the way, that would be interesting, I thought I had his book handy but can't find it.

[btcarfagno]

What a strange case Wes Ferrell is. He was a better hitter than his Hall Of Famer brother. He won 20+ games 6 times. He was also incredibly easy to hit off of, rarely struck anyone out and walked a ton of hitters. A normal 9 inning game for him would include 13-14 base runners. Efficient he was not.

Tom C

[timn1]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You go right on advocating for a guy with a 4.04 ERA then. You're doing a great job of convincing us that the voters of the last 70 years just didn't know what to look for. Where does Bill James rank him by the way, that would be interesting, I thought I had his book handy but can't find it.

Good question, Peter. Bill James ranks Ferrell #40 among pitchers, and EVERY pitcher ahead of him except Carl Mays at #38 is already in the HOF. (Mays might well be in there too if not for that little incident...) Ferrell is ranked just above a bunch more guys who are also in the HOF.

I don't argue that Ferrell was an efficient pitcher (neither was Nolan Ryan). He gave up lots of hits and walks in an era where almost everybody did, and still managed to post a .600 PCT and go 65 games over .500 while never pitching for a pennant winner. His strikeouts were probably league average or above for the era, and he gave up very few HRs. Oh, and the three years he led the league in hits allowed he also led in IP, so let's don't go crazy over that stat.

Do you realize how many HOF pitchers are NOT 65 games over par, even with many more decisions? And how few of them are at .600? (Look at Drysdale, for cryin out loud. That gaudy ERA and pitching for strong teams in Dodger Stadium didn't help him get more than 43 games over.)

Don't even get me started on some of these guys.... Marquard? - 24 games over .500 while playing for pretty good teams. Basically a .500 pitcher who had one good hot streak. His PW (Player Wins) rating is actually below 0!! Koufax's PW is at 22, as is Dizzy Dean's. Ferrell is at 31 (again, probably the highest of almost any 20th-century pitcher not in HOF).

To explain Ferrell as having 8 years of unbroken good luck makes little sense to me. The guy knew how to win.

[z28jd]

No one has mentioned it, but since the 2013 vote, they dropped Tony Mullane from the ballot. That was a ballot that had three get elected, Hank O'Day, Jacob Ruppert and Deacon White.

Dahlen will be elected this year. He got ten votes last time and that was with almost everyone voting for O'Day, Ruppert and White. Since voters had a maximum of four votes, those three took up 70% of the votes, leaving a maximum of 20 to be split among everyone else and Dahlen fell two votes short. With all the SABR advancement in figuring out the value of players to his team, Dahlen has jumped to the top of the charts as one of the best players of his era.

His career WAR is 75.2, which is higher than Johnny Bench, Reggie Jackson, Luke Appling and Barry Larkin(to add a couple SS in there).

WAR is a cumulative stat, so the more you play the higher it should be. I don't think anyone here would argue against Derek Jeter going in on the first ballot.

Jeter 2747 games, 71.8 WAR
Dahlen 2444 games, 75.2 WAR

That means that Dahlen was more valuable to his team than Jeter was to his. Since WAR is huge now in Hall of Fame talk, if Dahlen doesn't go in, then you have a continuation of a mistake that has been made since they put in the big group of players in the early 40's, because that's when Dahlen should have been elected.

All signs point to him going in this year though. He is recognized as the best position player not in, who played during the first 90 years of MLB, plus he is better than a lot of those players already in from that time span. He is the top returning vote-getter and just missed last time due to a numbers crunch.

The other one who should get in is Doc Adams. How his contribution to the game has been overlooked all these years is beyond me, but he has huge support from the SABR community. They named his their most overlooked legend last year and that helped push him to the new ballot. Adams should have been elected during the first ceremonies in 1939, but much of the credit he deserved wrongly went to others. If you don't think Adams should be in, then you don't know enough about him.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Marty Marion is a joke. Ferrell might not be a HOF pitcher, but he's a reasonable candidate as a HOF player. How many other pitchers put up better numbers at the plate than they allowed from the mound? I can think of one. Factor in the batting numbers, and he was more valuable than at least a couple dozen of the already-inducted pitchers.

Wins Above Replacement? I'm glad you asked.

Sandy Koufax:
Career -- 49.0
7-year peak -- 45.2

Wes Ferrell:
Career -- 61.6
7-year peak -- 53.2

P.S. I agree that Parisian Bob is conspicuous in his absence.

Glenn - I outta beat you with a (nerf) fungo bat for comparing Wes Ferrell to Sandy Koufax... shows how flawed even Sabremetrics like WAR can be.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Glenn - I outta beat you with a (nerf) fungo bat for comparing Wes Ferrell to Sandy Koufax... shows how flawed even Sabremetrics like WAR can be.

Maybe someone can explain Koufax's WAR 7 being so low despite his incredible streak of 6 seasons. He is essentially tied with WILBUR WOOD and ranked below Silver King, Stan Coveleski, Jack Stivetts, Dazzy Vance, Vic Willis, and Joe McGinnity, to name a few.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Maybe someone can explain Koufax's WAR 7 being so low despite his incredible streak of 6 seasons. He is essentially tied with WILBUR WOOD and ranked below Silver King, Stan Coveleski, Jack Stivetts, Dazzy Vance, Vic Willis, and Joe McGinnity, to name a few.

Not sure if home/road spits have anything to do with it. He was a slightly above average pitcher on the road. He was insane at home. Creature of Dodger Stadium.

Tom C