Greatest of all time

[sycks22]

Top hitters
Ruth
Cobb
Mays
Williams

Top Pitchers
Mathewson
Wajo
Pedro (Dominated during the most hitter friendly era / no PED's like Clemens)

[porkchops]

Yeah , I was wondering how the 62 Mets might have
finished if they had a rookie name Babe Ruth on their roster.
Doubt they'd have lost 120 , but who knows.
A lot of good players around today , but what would the quality of play be
if the best were re-teamed to only 16 rosters?

[timn1]

1. Wagner
2. Wagner
3. Wagner
4. Ruth
5. Cobb

PITCHERS
1. Grove
2. Johnson
3. Maddux
4. Spahn
5. Young

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Top hitters
Ruth
Mays
Williams

Top Pitchers
Mathewson
Wajo
Pedro (Dominated during the most hitter friendly era / no PED's like Clemens)

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

Agree on Rickey, but I've never particularly suspected Pedro.

[darwinbulldog]

Babe Ruth pitched 62% as many innings in his career as Dizzy Dean did, and Ruth had a better WHIP.

On an unrelated note, Home Run Baker hit more triples than home runs.

On an even less related note, Freud is more popular with English professors than with psychology professors.

[tbob]

Mantle is a top 5 all-time guy. Without the injuries, he would be #1 on my list. As it is, Babe was and is the best.

[lug-nut]

without taking into account that some of these choices that some members are making, are across different eras... I like my 5

1. Cobb
2. Williams
3. Ruth
4. Rose
5. Aaron

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

... Freud is more popular with English professors than with psychology professors.

That's because of the rampant English professorial cocaine usage

[glchen]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Pedro just never got caught. His career screams PED user and was on a team full of them. How this guy and Rickey Henderson get a free pass on PED use just amazes me beyond belief.

Pedro was skinny and stayed skinny, so he never looked like a PED user (e.g., Sosa, Bonds). He was great from early on, so was not a case where a suddenly average player became great (e.g., Ortiz). His career also petered out in his early 30s, so he didn't have a natural decline and then suddenly became great again (e.g., Clemens, Bonds). If you continue to be great in your late 30s, that raises flags, but Pedro had retired by then. Obviously, you never know, but I think that's why most people don't suspect him.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by glchen

Pedro was skinny and stayed skinny, so he never looked like a PED user (e.g., Sosa, Bonds). He was great from early on, so was not a case where a suddenly average player became great (e.g., Ortiz). His career also petered out in his early 30s, so he didn't have a natural decline and then suddenly became great again (e.g., Clemens, Bonds). If you continue to be great in your late 30s, that raises flags, but Pedro had retired by then. Obviously, you never know, but I think that's why most people don't suspect him.

That is just one of the big misconceptions with PEDs. Being skinny and staying skinny just means he did not use a steroid used to build mass. His career petered out early because of the PED abuse.

Bonds only used at the end of his career and look how after a couple years the injuries built up quick. With Clemens I am really on the fence. He had a very long career so he had to be very smart with his PED use. Look at all the strange injuries the other PED uses had that he somehow never got. I am sure he did use something but did crazily overuse like McGwire, Sosa, Giambi and Bonds who juiced to the gills. Would go into more detail but got to get back to work.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

That is just one of the big misconceptions with PEDs. Being skinny and staying skinny just means he did not use a steroid used to build mass. His career petered out early because of the PED abuse.

Bonds only used at the end of his career and look how after a couple years the injuries built up quick. With Clemens I am really on the fence. He had a very long career so he had to be very smart with his PED use. Look at all the strange injuries the other PED uses had that he somehow never got. I am sure he did use something but did crazily overuse like McGwire, Sosa, Giambi and Bonds who juiced to the gills. Would go into more detail but got to get back to work.

I would be very interested in why you think Pedro used. I have never heard that, and his career track can easily be explained by how hard he threw despite a skinny body. He eventually just threw himself out.

I don't know if it's a steroid thing, BTW, but Clemens had groin problems (and no I don't mean chasing after whoever he chased after) for much of his career. He was just a tough bastard and pitched through them. He was written off for dead twice by Boston fans, in 1996 (oops, two consecutive Cy Youngs the next two years) and then again when he got shelled early in the 1999 playoffs and it was the triumph of Pedro blah blah. Two more Cy Young awards later, Roger was still going.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would be very interested in why you think Pedro used. I have never heard that, and his career track can easily be explained by how hard he threw despite a skinny body. He eventually just threw himself out.

I don't know if it's a steroid thing, BTW, but Clemens had groin problems (and no I don't mean chasing after whoever he chased after) for much of his career. He was just a tough bastard and pitched through them. He was written off for dead twice by Boston fans, in 1996 (oops, two consecutive Cy Youngs the next two years) and then again when he got shelled early in the 1999 playoffs and it was the triumph of Pedro blah blah. Two more Cy Young awards later, Roger was still going.

Your entire post pretty much outlines why in my opinion Pedro was a PED abuser while I believe Clemens only used in small quantities to stay healthy.

As a Sox fan I watched Pedro pitch a lot of games. All the announcers talked about was how amazing it was that such a skinny guy could throw so hard and pitch so many innings and how nobody else with that body type had ever been able to do that. I don't think he was ever a major user but used way more than to just stay healthy.

Clemens on the other hand had way to long and consistent career to have used them in excess.

I base this opinion on the above and the fact I used them myself on and of for close to 15 years so I know first hand how they affect ones body and performance. By the age of 35 my body was shot. I can also assure you the worst side affect of steroids is the depression that comes when you are done with a cycle. The last time I done them I had severe depression for close to two years.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ron Guidry was a pretty lean guy as I recall and threw very very hard.