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  #1  
Old 07-20-2015, 08:54 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!
Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 07-20-2015 at 08:56 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-20-2015, 09:42 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.
still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 07-20-2015 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector View Post
still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?
Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.
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Old 07-21-2015, 08:44 AM
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Punishing relievers for only pitching 1200 innings is like punishing pitchers for only playing 500 games.
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Old 07-21-2015, 06:14 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.
true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

basically I think Kershaw can do what M. Rivera did or much much closer than M. Rivera can do what Kershaw did..

I would say adam waighnright is one of the better SPs that was a reliever..but was only a reliever for a short time.... M. Rivera was a starting pitcher for a short time and was horrible...

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 07-21-2015 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 07-21-2015, 06:19 PM
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true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......
Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2015, 06:22 PM
1952boyntoncollector 1952boyntoncollector is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
Yes but so what. That's like saying more shortstops become third basemen than vice versa, or that more outfielders become first basemen than vice versa. Since a team needs both, I am not sure what the point is?
right teams need a good catcher who doesn't have to hit too..teams need lots of guys....but they all don't make the HOF

my point is SPs are on a whole different much higher level in the HOF versus closers....unless they can be judged on 1200 innings just like closers are and not 5000 + innings ..do we have to go through this again?

Last edited by 1952boyntoncollector; 07-21-2015 at 06:23 PM.
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  #8  
Old 07-22-2015, 09:02 PM
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I switched from PSA to SGC years ago when I started getting PSA 5s off ebay that had obvious wrinkles or trimming problems. I don't mind an EX card with roundness to the corners, so long as there are no damn creases. I've never been failed by SGC on this front. When I buy a card that I can see centering and corner issues in the scan myself -- I don't need TPG for that -- I want to know, I want to trust, that there are no creases in it. Buy an SGC 60+ and you're much more likely to be right.

But, people want liquidity to their investments and are willing to tolerate the sordid history of the trimmed PSA 8 Wagner to maintain the ability of a quick flip to the next customer/collector. It's like I've said about JSA authenticated items -- it doesn't matter if it's real or not; it only matters what James Spence says. And that's a scary place to be.

If your goal is to kill SGC off, and drive prices up for your PSA cards, then starting this post makes a lot of sense. But beware a single monopoly dictating grades and values. Because then quality will lag, people will get pissed off, liquidity will freeze up, and values will drop. You want healthy competition between two or three responsible TPGs. It's a very good thing for our hobby.
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