SGC T206s....It needs to be brought up, it's scary, very scary if you are a collector

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I think that post was limited to Kershaw's far less than stellar playoff performance to date, Bill.

Highest regards,

Larry

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Larry,

I thought about that, but the comparison was made that Kershaw was over-hyped, while Sale just dominates. Sale has never even pitched in the post season, so that would be an odd comparison, to me. Kershaw has been a very mixed bag in post season baseball, absolutely. There have been a few times he was quite good. But taken as a whole, he's been awful.

But to suggest that Kershaw is over-hyped because he plays in Los Angeles, while Sale somehow flies under the radar because he plays in Chicago, is silly, imho. Some of the most hyped athletes in American sports history-Michael Jordan, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, to name a few, have played their entire careers in Chicago (well, Jordan played two in Washington after being retired three years). That's not to question their greatness (or that of Chris Sale), but Kershaw has won three Cy Young Awards in four years (and was runner-up the other). He's been simply spectacular.

Since 1960, there have been 634 pitchers to throw 1,000 or more innings. Only Mariano Rivera, Hoyt Wilhelm (relievers) and Pedro Martinez have a higher ERA + in that time than Kershaw's 150. And since the start of the 2011 season, nearly five full seasons, his ERA + has been 167. That includes a record of 79-32 (.718 win pct), a 2.18 ERA, 1,122 Ks in 1,026.1 IP. His WHIP is a silly 0.951. He's led the National League in ERA and WHIP each of the last four years.

That's not hype, it's greatness. That 167 ERA + matches identically the same figure Sandy Koufax had in his last five seasons.

And they both begin with K

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill all true, but when you get shelled in the playoffs it undercuts a lot of that in people's minds. Look at pre-roid confession ARod, whose legacy was already banged up from not performing in the post-season. Or, for much of his career, Bonds.

[RGold]

Imdee.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

And they both begin with K

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!
.
.

[Paul S]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I'm just really enjoying the fact that all three (Koufax, Kershaw, & Sale) are left-handed!!.

it's scary, very scary

[1952boyntoncollector]

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Kershaw is the man...

I still thinks its cheesy for relievers to be in the Hall of Fame....Kershaw could of been great closer....so would Nolan ryan for example ..but would Rivera on the Yankees be a good starting pitcher.... Rivera is considered one of the best closers and he pitched like 1200 innings...Didn't Nolan ryan pitch that amount in like 7 years? Why does Nolan Ryan have to pitch another 15 years or so to prove his worth and pitch 5000+ innings....while rivera only has to pitch 1200

basially back to Kershaw....the fact hes a Starting Pitcher makes him more the man!

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Apples and oranges. A closer has a much narrower margin of error than a starter, as the game is usually on the line and a mistake is potentially much more costly. You can't just give up a run or two, settle into your rhythm and wait for your team to catch up. Great starters would not necessarily make great relievers. Rivera's worth for most of his career was unfathomable.

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

still 1200 is a small sample size in terms of innings versus 5000 innings.....plus the set up man many times gets the real 'save' ie. faces the 3rd 4th and 5th hitters..while the closer gets the bottom of the order and a 4th OF bat for the pitcher......the SP face the whole lineup several times... closers are worth a lot I agree..but not as much as stud pitchers....the best SP ever is way over the league of whoever the best closer is ever....

you can agree that more great SPs can be closers than great RPs to be SPs...... Smoltz and Eckersley both SPs who later became elite closers....not any elite (ie HOF type )SPs that used to be closers?


and again..6000 innings for a SP to make the HOF and only 1200 for a relief pitcher? So whats next...a pinch hitter with 2000 clutch ABs. versus someone with 10000 abs?

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

[darwinbulldog]

Punishing relievers for only pitching 1200 innings is like punishing pitchers for only playing 500 games.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not HOFers, but RA Dickey, Kenny Rogers, Charlie Hough were pretty good starters who originally were relievers.

true but not HOFs..and if talk about pretty good relievers that used to be starters its a much much longer list.......

basically I think Kershaw can do what M. Rivera did or much much closer than M. Rivera can do what Kershaw did..

I would say adam waighnright is one of the better SPs that was a reliever..but was only a reliever for a short time.... M. Rivera was a starting pitcher for a short time and was horrible...