Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

Peter_Spaeth · #1 07-09-2015, 02:41 PM

Great information, Steve. It seems there is a world of difference between what a TPG can detect with minimal equipment on a one minute review and what COULD be detected with sufficient time, money and training. And I would even question whether TPGs could detect a lot more than they do if they really cared to, even under present review conditions. Unless Steve corrects me, I stand by my thesis that when solvents are used to remove stains from cards, there will be detectable changes in the paper.

vintagetoppsguy · #2 07-09-2015, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Great information, Steve.

Let's assume that Steve is right when he says "Even simple exposure to water should leave some trace". How would a grading company detect the differecne between a card that had been soaked in water to remove a stain as opposed to a card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity? Should the card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity be labeled as the card that was soaked?

poorlydrawncat · #3 07-09-2015, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Let's assume that Steve is right when he says "Even simple exposure to water should leave some trace". How would a grading company detect the differecne between a card that had been soaked in water to remove a stain as opposed to a card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity? Should the card that absorbed moisture/water from humidity be labeled as the card that was soaked?

This was exactly my point earlier, when I was saying people will likely always be more lenient towards cards that show evidence of soaking because it's so difficult to determine whether or not humidity was the true cause (although things like bleeding would be an obvious sign of a soak...). Not only that, people already consider water moisture as a part of the card already, given that nearly everything on the planet is composed of some amount of water.

That being said, I think someday we're going to see people start caring about other chemicals/solvents (much in the way car restoration used to be pervasive, now it's starting to be considered "molestation"). Maybe when the tests become easier and cheaper to carry out. At that point it will be interesting to see if anyone regrets having cards chemically altered.

Stonepony · #4 07-09-2015, 03:03 PM

One reason, besides cost, that TPGs don't break out the electron microscopes or mass spectrometers is that most people don't care to find out if there are subatomic changes to a card or that in 1950 my Mantle card was placed on a counter freshly cleaned with Bon Ami. I know I don't. I know that's being facetious, but do you really want to detect all this. Air and time destroy cards. Let's at least leave those 2 things alone.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 07-09-2015, 03:05 PM

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

Stonepony · #6 07-09-2015, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

Intent to deceive. I agree 100%.

Stonepony · #7 07-09-2015, 03:25 PM

Back to topic , is there sufficient evidence to conclude the E93s have been altered? Pretty bold statement by an experienced and respected board member.
I would like to see some veteran members chime in with a " yes" or " no"

Jantz · #8 07-09-2015, 05:56 PM

Ritter was chemically cleaned 6 years ago.

Seller never mentioned that fact in their auction.

ullmandds · #9 07-09-2015, 08:47 PM

Where is the outrage? I am somewhat outraged...but what can be done?

This whole situation reminds me of the PED's in baseball. For many years this was ignored...accolades were celebrated. Seemingly when certain hallowed records became in reach and or broken people started to take notice. And changes were made. But in that time PED's became harder and harder to detect...when one became detectable a new one came around that was not. I imagine tons and tons of money was poured into this by major-league baseball to control the situation better.

If this problem with in the hobby were to be remedied it would also require lots and lots of financial investment and technology...and for what? A handful of us on a vintage baseball card message board feeling better about the hobby that we love?

Most registry heads and casual collectors could not care less if their cards have been altered. How many trimmed/altered/overgraded cards do we see in high-grade holders selling for huge sums of money.

I just don't think enough people really care and there is enough money to invest to remedy the problem.

Stonepony · #10 07-09-2015, 03:06 PM

Uhhhh make that my 51 Mantle

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