Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dave, respectfully, air and time are not alterations with the intent to deceive. I personally would like to know if alterations with the intent to deceive have been made.

Intent to deceive. I agree 100%.

[Stonepony]

Back to topic , is there sufficient evidence to conclude the E93s have been altered? Pretty bold statement by an experienced and respected board member.
I would like to see some veteran members chime in with a " yes" or " no"

[Jantz]

Ritter was chemically cleaned 6 years ago.

Seller never mentioned that fact in their auction.

[ullmandds]

Where is the outrage? I am somewhat outraged...but what can be done?

This whole situation reminds me of the PED's in baseball. For many years this was ignored...accolades were celebrated. Seemingly when certain hallowed records became in reach and or broken people started to take notice. And changes were made. But in that time PED's became harder and harder to detect...when one became detectable a new one came around that was not. I imagine tons and tons of money was poured into this by major-league baseball to control the situation better.

If this problem with in the hobby were to be remedied it would also require lots and lots of financial investment and technology...and for what? A handful of us on a vintage baseball card message board feeling better about the hobby that we love?

Most registry heads and casual collectors could not care less if their cards have been altered. How many trimmed/altered/overgraded cards do we see in high-grade holders selling for huge sums of money.

I just don't think enough people really care and there is enough money to invest to remedy the problem.

[Econteachert205]

This argument is older than I thought...


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...esives-removal

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

This argument is older than I thought...


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...esives-removal

Doctoring was rampant in the late 80s. Indeed, and some would say ironically, it spurred PSA's start in 1991.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Pete my guess is that if law enforcement put its mind to it, some perpetrators could be taken down. Maybe it's even happening as we speak. As we have seen on this very thread, people keep documents that could assist such an endeavor.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pete my guess is that if law enforcement put its mind to it, some perpetrators could be taken down. Maybe it's even happening as we speak. As we have seen on this very thread, people keep documents that could assist such an endeavor.

absolutely... and I hope you are correct and I hope this is happening. Our discussions on this board do make a difference.

But I will not huff and puff I will not jump up-and-down in outrage.

My reaction to all of this is to do my due diligence...by examining cards with a high magnification loupe, a black light...Learning as much as I can about card alterations and such, occasionally getting help from my friends... and by not paying large sums of money for highly graded cards...I hope to avoid this shady side of the hobby.

[ergoism]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pete my guess is that if law enforcement put its mind to it, some perpetrators could be taken down. Maybe it's even happening as we speak. As we have seen on this very thread, people keep documents that could assist such an endeavor.

I would much rather them focus such efforts in this industry towards finding people who rebuild corners, reback, recolor, reprint, stamp new backs, reseal packs, falsify slabs, etc. I spend a decent sum of money on cards and those things bother me. If I bought a card for $200,000 and someone had removed a stain from it that wasn't supposed to be there in the first place, I don't give a damn. This particular issue is and always has been a gray area in the hobby. I would imagine it'd be tough to make it black and white in the legal system not to mention having to find substantial evidence. As this thread has shown, people will have their opinions and more than likely stick to them. There's not a chemical to remove those.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Pete my guess is that if law enforcement put its mind to it, some perpetrators could be taken down. Maybe it's even happening as we speak. As we have seen on this very thread, people keep documents that could assist such an endeavor.

Lol!