Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[DICKTOWLE]

To All, All of my work comes with an invoice and full disclosure on every card that is done- All detail is there to see what was done on the card. When the cards leave my home back to clients, what they do is there business, not mine.

I hope this answer's any question about my work and the integrity behind our family business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

To All, All of my work comes with an invoice and full disclosure on every card that is done- All detail is there to see what was done on the card. When the cards leave my home back to clients, what they do is there business, not mine.

I hope this answer's any question about my work and the integrity behind our family business.

I completely disagree that that lets you off the hook, Dick. You know exactly what your clients are doing (or some of them), and that makes you an enabler, in my opinion. Unless you are going to tell us that dealers don't use your services and it's only collectors. By the TPGs' standards you are making unacceptable alterations to cards, and you well know your services are sought in order to profit from deception.

PS those invoices would certainly make interesting reading.

[1880nonsports]

as a solution would you suggest suppressing DT's right to perform such an activity and an individuals right to have something like a stain removed from a card or do you have another idea? Where does the actual responsibility lie and where is the line drawn?

[ullmandds]

"By the TPGs' standards you are making unacceptable alterations to cards."

How can such practices be unacceptable to the TPG'ers if they can't even tell if they were done?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

"By the TPGs' standards you are making unacceptable alterations to cards."

How can such practices be unacceptable to the TPG'ers if they can't even tell if they were done?

Pete that is just not worthy of you. The practices are unacceptable, period, in the eyes of the TPGs. They say so, right in their standards. That there are people good enough to DECEIVE the TPGs -- who by the way don't have crime labs -- is a completely different point, and shows only that there are fraudsters out there.

By your logic, Pete, it's OK to rob a bank if you get away with it. Think about it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The practices are unacceptable, period, in the eyes of the TPGs.

No they're not. They say no "Evidence" of it. Again, there is a difference.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By your logic, Pete, it's OK to rob a bank if you get away with it. Think about it.

If there is no evidence that you robbed the bank, how can you be convicted?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No they're not. They say no "Evidence" of it. Again, there is a difference.



If there is no evidence that you robbed the bank, how can you be convicted?

That is lame beyond belief. So you think they are saying, it's unacceptable to alter a card only if you leave evidence that it was altered? That is one of the most absurd things I ever have read. No, David, they are saying the practice is unacceptable. Now they might screw up and miss the evidence, or they might not have equipment sophisticated enough to detect the evidence, but that sure as hell does not mean really good alteration is acceptable.

[bnorth]

Would it be ethical to sell this 1958 Blue Front Hank Aaron #30 Topps card knowing it is altered if PSA or SGC would give it a # grade? It is a only known version. It has the blue background, Missing yellow in Milwaukee Braves, but has perfect yellow in the Braves logo. It is an amazing card. If your answer is yes PM me with outrageous offer.

[steve B]

I hate to disagree with anyone who can quote Hendrix while discussing altered cards. But.................

Water is a solvent. Many things are described as "water soluble" or "oil soluble" And that difference is what the process that produced the cards is based on.

I think there's room for both some restoration with disclosure and an approach of no restoration. Fortunately or not - for me the difference between a 6 and 9 on most prewar cards isn't an everyday issue. I can't afford either. But if I could, I'd want to know about alterations/cleaning/etc that had been done.

If a TPG wanted to they could probably detect most oil based solvents or cleaning done with water plus other substances. They could also probably detect cleaning done with water.
But that would take time, and their entire business model is reversed so that the cards that should get a very close look are less likely to get that. A common from many sets could lay around for a while before it gets looked at, but the expensive stuff gets in and out in a day or two, maybe less.

Yes, most dealers probably need to get their cards back quickly so they can be resold. And that need drives the TPGs. It also allows a lot of space for "inappropriate shenanigans" since the TPGs don't have the time for a proper examination. As such they're probably bigger enablers than nearly anyone.


Whether stain removal or cleaning or any other alteration/restoration is acceptable is a topic that won't be an easy one for the hobby to deal with until the TPGs can take the time to pick that stuff up. I don't really have a problem with it other than the issue I think Peter points out, that being the deception and the money involved in that deception. Many stains will or can do damage long term, and probably should be removed. Not mentioning the removal is wrong in any number of ways.

Steve Birmingham

PS - Rewriting that song to make it about the hobby would be pretty interesting.
"If that scrapbook all came free....let it be
If the doctors cut of any border that'd be out of order"

Nah, not quite good enough.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

as a solution would you suggest suppressing DT's right to perform such an activity and an individuals right to have something like a stain removed from a card or do you have another idea? Where does the actual responsibility lie and where is the line drawn?

So Henry here is the problem. Let's suppose I send Dick a card, or work it myself, with the intent of simply improving its appearance and keeping it in my collection. And let's suppose hypothetically that if submitted, or viewed by the average buyer raw, the work done while generally viewed as an alteration would not be detected. Now eventually, that card, unless I burn it, is going to get into the marketplace. And be graded. So thus, even in this circumstance, I have created the potential for a deceptive transaction to occur. So if pushed I would take an absolute position that it is not proper, ever, to alter a card. Now yes, someone could make a slippery slope argument back, but one can almost always do that with an absolute position. if there is some other better place to draw the line, I don't know what it is right now.

[Stonepony]

Where that line is drawn is certainly up to the individual. Depending on the collector, "altering" is somewhere on the spectrum between removing a stray toast crumb and manipulation of the card stock itself. I doubt many of us stand on the exact grey line , and while I see the wisdom in the various opinions, I don't see onevthat I'm complete agreement with. I just know we need slot more honesty in the hobby.

[DICKTOWLE]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I completely disagree that that lets you off the hook, Dick. You know exactly what your clients are doing (or some of them), and that makes you an enabler, in my opinion. Unless you are going to tell us that dealers don't use your services and it's only collectors. By the TPGs' standards you are making unacceptable alterations to cards, and you well know your services are sought in order to profit from deception.

PS those invoices would certainly make interesting reading.

PETER, SEND ME A CARD TO WORK AND I WILL SEND YOU A INVOICE OF MY WORK---

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

PETER, SEND ME A CARD TO WORK AND I WILL SEND YOU A INVOICE OF MY WORK---

No thanks Dick. I don't believe in altering cards, in case you missed that. But feel free to send me, or law enforcement, your other invoices.