Altered high grade E93s in Mile High?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not as I think of the term, no. Not a chemical solvent, anyhow.

I guess I just don't see the difference. If I have a card with a stain and I soak it to remove the stain, what difference does it make what I used (water or chemical solvent), as long as no one can tell and there are no long term effects? Whether it was water or a chemical solvent, isn't the result still the same? So, what does it matter what was used?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I guess I just don't see the difference. If I have a card with a stain and I soak it to remove the stain, what difference does it make what I used (water or chemical solvent), as long as no one can tell and there are no long term effects? Whether it was water or a chemical solvent, isn't the result still the same? So, what does it matter what was used?

So why do the TPGs say you can't do it? Probably because it is not established that the solvents don't do damage. Indeed look at the faded colors on the E93s.

[Peter_Spaeth]

By your logic it's OK to take out a major crease if you can't tell. I guess I just don't feel the same way. And neither do the TPGs. It's deception, and someone who does it for clients who then submit the cards without disclosure is enabling fraud.

PS I bet if you used sophisticated enough equipment you could tell that solvents had been used.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By your logic it's OK to take out a major crease if you can't tell.

Quite different. Removing a crease is altering the paper stock of the card. If removing a stain doesn't effect the card in any way, then the paper stock has not been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Quite different. Removing a crease is altering the paper stock of the card. If removing a stain doesn't effect the card in any way, then the paper stock has not been altered.

And your evidence that solvents don't is.......

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't read this as saying it's inappropriate only if PSA can detect it and otherwise it is OK. I don't think anybody could, reasonably.

N-7 Evidence of Cleaning - When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.

[DICKTOWLE]

To All, All of my work comes with an invoice and full disclosure on every card that is done- All detail is there to see what was done on the card. When the cards leave my home back to clients, what they do is there business, not mine.

I hope this answer's any question about my work and the integrity behind our family business.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

To All, All of my work comes with an invoice and full disclosure on every card that is done- All detail is there to see what was done on the card. When the cards leave my home back to clients, what they do is there business, not mine.

I hope this answer's any question about my work and the integrity behind our family business.

I completely disagree that that lets you off the hook, Dick. You know exactly what your clients are doing (or some of them), and that makes you an enabler, in my opinion. Unless you are going to tell us that dealers don't use your services and it's only collectors. By the TPGs' standards you are making unacceptable alterations to cards, and you well know your services are sought in order to profit from deception.

PS those invoices would certainly make interesting reading.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So why do the TPGs say you can't do it? Probably because it is not established that the solvents don't do damage. Indeed look at the faded colors on the E93s.

Which TPG's say you can't do it? That is a common misconception. They don't say you can't do it, they say there can be no evidence of it. Quite a difference.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Which TPG's say you can't do it? That is a common misconception. They don't say you can't do it, they say there can be no evidence of it. Quite a difference.

I completely disagree with the conclusion you draw from that wording. Do you REALLY think a TPG's position is that it blesses really good card doctoring? IMO there is no way Dave Forman or Joe Orlando would say that.