T206 Who should be a HOFer that isn't ???

[Mountaineer1999]

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

Lol Bill Dahlen is on the "Overlooked" list in the book. So he at least gets recognized.

[packs]

I never understood why Larry Doyle isn't in. He was the premiere NL second baseman of his time and retired the best ever at the position in his league. To me, the best player at their position in their era is a HOFer.

[trdcrdkid]

Sherry Magee (who I know is in the "Overlooked" section in the T206 book)
Jack Quinn
Jack Powell

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

Sherry Magee (who I know is in the "Overlooked" section in the T206 book)
Jack Quinn
Jack Powell

Interesting I like them as HOFers too thought that I was the only one who would consider them because of their high losses in addition to wins.

[z28jd]

When you mention all that Donie Bush did in baseball, it points out that the HOF needs a category for career HOF'ers. Case in point, Charlie Grimm

.290 career hitter in 2166 games, drove in over 1000 runs. Very good career and I agree, not a HOF player.

19 years as a manager, 1287-1067 record, three NL pennants and I agree, not a HOF manager either, but you can't tell me that isn't a HOF career!

Dahlen will get in the HOF, now that WAR is a highly accepted stat to explain a player's value, you can't keep him out. Paul Molitor played 21 years, had a 75.4 WAR, Dahlen 21 years 75.2, one had no trouble getting in on the first ballot, the other has been retired for over 100 years, back when that WAR would have made him the sixth best position player ever up to that point.

When they put in Derek Jeter with 90+% of the votes and say, hey here is a shortstop with more value not in the HOF. Of course, you could say that with Barry Larkin, who basically had the same exact value as Jeter(aka not as good as Dahlen either) and he went in while waiting three long years, the poor guy

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by z28jd

When you mention all that Donie Bush did in baseball, it points out that the HOF needs a category for career HOF'ers. Case in point, Charlie Grimm

.290 career hitter in 2166 games, drove in over 1000 runs. Very good career and I agree, not a HOF player.

19 years as a manager, 1287-1067 record, three NL pennants and I agree, not a HOF manager either, but you can't tell me that isn't a HOF career!

Dahlen will get in the HOF, now that WAR is a highly accepted stat to explain a player's value, you can't keep him out. Paul Molitor played 21 years, had a 75.4 WAR, Dahlen 21 years 75.2, one had no trouble getting in on the first ballot, the other has been retired for over 100 years, back when that WAR would have made him the sixth best position player ever up to that point.

When they put in Derek Jeter with 90+% of the votes and say, hey here is a shortstop with more value not in the HOF. Of course, you could say that with Barry Larkin, who basically had the same exact value as Jeter(aka not as good as Dahlen either) and he went in while waiting three long years, the poor guy

Donnie Bush also had 1,800 hits and was considered one of the best fielding SS's in baseball.

"As a batter, Bush did not hit for high batting average but was regularly among the Major League leaders in drawing bases on balls, sacrifice hits, stolen bases, and runs scored. At the time of his retirement in 1923, Bush's 1,158 bases on balls ranked second in Major League history. His 337 sacrifice hits still ranks fifth in Major League history, and his 1909 total of 52 sacrifice hits is the fourth highest in Major League history. He ranked among the American League leaders in stolen bases ten times, and, during the decade from 1910 to 1919, the only players to score more runs than Bush were Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, and Tris Speaker."

"He was recognized as one of the best defensive shortstops of the dead-ball era. He had more putouts, assists, and total chances than any other shortstop of the era, and his 1914 totals of 425 putouts and 969 chances are still American League records for shortstops (and the Major League record for putouts). He also led the American League in assists by a shortstop on five occasions and holds the Major League record with nine triple plays."

[RaidonCollects]

I highly agree with Bill Dinneen. Extremely overlooked.

-Pitched a no-hitter in '05
-Led the AL in saves in '03 and '07
-Stole the pennant of the Highlanders in the last game of the season (beating Jack Chesbro and his 41-win season in a pitching duel in '04)
-Pitched very well in the '03 series with a 3-1 record and pitching 11 strikeouts in Game 2
-Jimmy Collins listed him in the best 6 pitchers he had ever seen (with WaJo, Joss, Chesbro, Young and Ed Walsh
-4 20-win seasons (plus one in '87 in the minors)
-40 consecutive seasons in the majors (as player and umpire).
-Umpired the first half of the first AS game, plus 8 different WS and 5 no-no's.
-Ban Johnson (in a letter to Babe Ruth) said "Dinneen was one of the greatest pitchers the game ever produced" and "He is one of the cleanest and most honorable men baseball ever fostered"

Rant over

Hurry up Cooperstown

[Bpm0014]

Bill Dahlen
George Mullin

[Econteachert205]

Deacon phillippe

[Frank A]

None: If they haven't made it by now, forget it.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Frank A

None: If they haven't made it by now, forget it.

Interesting approach on the question ......... Wasn't expecting that one.

[Topps206]

I would not vote for Ed Reulbach.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I would not vote for Ed Reulbach.

Leon, please end this thread....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I would not vote for Ed Reulbach.

So who would you vote for dumb ass???

[insccollectibles]

Dahlen will most likely be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible again.

From Wikipedia:
Dahlen was included on the Veterans Committee ballot for 2013 induction to the Hall of Fame. The results were announced on December 3, 2012. Dahlen received 10 out of 16 votes, falling 2 votes short of election, the highest total of any person on the ballot who was not elected and will have to wait until the end of 2015 for election.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by insccollectibles

Dahlen will most likely be a Hall of Famer when he is eligible again.

From Wikipedia:
Dahlen was included on the Veterans Committee ballot for 2013 induction to the Hall of Fame. The results were announced on December 3, 2012. Dahlen received 10 out of 16 votes, falling 2 votes short of election, the highest total of any person on the ballot who was not elected and will have to wait until the end of 2015 for election.

I've always wondered how it would effect the card in the set of a player if they actually get inducted.

[insccollectibles]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

I've always wondered how it would effect the card in the set of a player if they actually get inducted.

His Boston card already sells for a premium but it will most likely go up some after the election. The Brooklyn card is of course considered rarer and sells for a good price already but will most likely go up as well.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

Put Bill Dahlen in and take Rube Marquard out.

In all honesty, what got Marquard in the Hall was his stretch from 1911-1913. He went 73-28, end of story. I agree about Dahlen, but I fear that ship has long sailed......

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

In all honesty, what got Marquard in the Hall was his stretch from 1911-1913. He went 73-28, end of story. I agree about Dahlen, but I fear that ship has long sailed......

Not to worry. He'll have fewer chances now, but if we, as a movement cam get strong backing, he can get it. He's better many players already in and is better than tons of shortstops in.

[CMIZ5290]

I think Ed Reulbach is a valid candidate.....

[Topps206]

He's not bad, I guess. Though I'm not crazy about him.

[RaidonCollects]

I agree that Ed Reulbach was a great player, but I don't think he's HOF worthy. He only posted one 20 win season plus here is his HOF stats:

Black Ink Pitching - 13 (175), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (152), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (97), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Starting Pitcher (202nd), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

-Owen

[Topps206]

Another interesting device is the Keltner List, too.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

I agree that Ed Reulbach was a great player, but I don't think he's HOF worthy. He only posted one 20 win season plus here is his HOF stats:

Black Ink Pitching - 13 (175), Average HOFer ≈ 40
Gray Ink Pitching - 123 (152), Average HOFer ≈ 185
Hall of Fame Monitor Pitching - 101 (97), Likely HOFer ≈ 100
Hall of Fame Standards Pitching - 44 (54), Average HOFer ≈ 50
JAWS Starting Pitcher (202nd), 36.6 career WAR/32.3 7yr-peak WAR/34.5 JAWS
Average HOF P (out of 62) = 73.9 career WAR/50.3 7yr-peak WAR/62.1 JAWS

-Owen

I agree,career 27.1 fWAR, walked nearly as many as he struck out. Not a HOF'er

Sherry Magee falls a little short too IMO, 63.7 WAR is good, but among OF'ers it's only 40th all time, his wRC+ is also only tied for 64th among OF'ers all time.

During his career (1904-1919) he was only the 13th best OF hitter, and was 3rd in fWAR.