Ty Cobb - Not a Cheating Bigot or Dirty Player - new biography

[4815162342]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431270759.541892.jpg
I guess he was right.

[Hankphenom]

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Would that every human being be blessed with the humanity and grace of Buck O'Neil.

Cobb was a racist. He was ruthless. He was also a brilliant ballplayer. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Let me amend this post to say this: I truly, truly hope that what Leerhsen says is correct. I am a massive Giants' fan, but I could never collect Alvin Dark baseball cards after hearing so many stories of his racism. Years later, someone pointed to an obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle about Dark. It contained quotes by Alou and Cepeda about how Dark had asked for forgiveness for his words and behavior in his later days. While not absolving the individual of racist acts, the idea of contrition is a powerful one. I'll try to follow the example of Buck O'Neill in life... and hope that the truth about Cobb wins out. History should never be whitewashed, but it should contain the whole unvarnished record.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Wow, thanks for sharing that link. Some men are smart, but few are wise. Buck O'Neil had wisdom to spare. What a great man, and a great American.

[Jlighter]

Another interview. I'm not seeking these out, the author so happens to be appearing on the programs I frequent.

http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16...arles-leerhsen

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

Davy Jones offers interesting insights, would like to know more about his take on Cobb

[Tabe]

Tim Hornbaker has written a biography of Cobb that has also just been released. His book, which features extensive footnotes and sourcing, concludes that Cobb was racist. Not so much in the KKK mold but in the "I'm white and you should act with deference to me at all times." mold. I asked Tim about this other new book and he told me he doesn't understand how anyone could draw the "not a racist" conclusion.

Hornbaker's book, btw, is fantastic.

FWIW, he agrees that Cobb was not a dirty player.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

+1 as to what is said by his contemporaries in "The Glory of Their Times." The reviewer is also totally off base with regard to his contention that Cobb played in a time when high averages were common. In actual point of fact, Cobb played throughout the heart of the greatest pitchers' era of all time. He is, in fact, just one of 8 players who created more than 200% of the runs an average player would create during the same playing era, a Bill James stat which I consider the best yardstick to compare players across eras, playing their careers under vastly different conditions. Interestingly enough, when you utilize the "neutralization" factor at baseballreference.com, under neutral conditions, to perform up to the equivalent standards of the Georgia Peach, a player would have to hit .400 or better not 3, as Cobb did, but seven times, with an additional 3 seasons of .390 or better!

His legend is growing, and deservedly so.

May your collecting fill you with joy,

Larry

[Butch7999]

We thought Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Butch7999

We though Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

In the case of Tim Hornbaker's book, at least, he used a ton of primary sources from Cobb's time. In particular, he made use of articles from African-American newspapers that have gone largely ignored previously.

The "Cobb was a racist" thing isn't just from Stump (who was a fraud) and it's not just from old guys airing a 50-year old grudge.