Ty Cobb - Not a Cheating Bigot or Dirty Player - new biography

[Hankphenom]

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Would that every human being be blessed with the humanity and grace of Buck O'Neil.

Cobb was a racist. He was ruthless. He was also a brilliant ballplayer. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Let me amend this post to say this: I truly, truly hope that what Leerhsen says is correct. I am a massive Giants' fan, but I could never collect Alvin Dark baseball cards after hearing so many stories of his racism. Years later, someone pointed to an obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle about Dark. It contained quotes by Alou and Cepeda about how Dark had asked for forgiveness for his words and behavior in his later days. While not absolving the individual of racist acts, the idea of contrition is a powerful one. I'll try to follow the example of Buck O'Neill in life... and hope that the truth about Cobb wins out. History should never be whitewashed, but it should contain the whole unvarnished record.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Wow, thanks for sharing that link. Some men are smart, but few are wise. Buck O'Neil had wisdom to spare. What a great man, and a great American.

[Jlighter]

Another interview. I'm not seeking these out, the author so happens to be appearing on the programs I frequent.

http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16...arles-leerhsen

[jhs5120]

These are the Ty Cobb stories I have heard. Are all of these not true? They are all pretty damaging:

• In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.
• In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.
• In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)
• In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.
• In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.
• In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

Edited to add:

Riley Cooper is known as a racist because he said n****** once (or twice?) after a game. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ron Artest is known as a violent animal because he climbed into the stands to beat up a heckler. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ray Rice is known as a woman beater because he punched his girlfriend. Ty Cobb has also done that!

Could you imagine an athlete more racist than Riley Cooper, as violent as Ron Artest and has the same regard for women as Ray Rice? Sounds like a pleasant fellow

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

Davy Jones offers interesting insights, would like to know more about his take on Cobb

[Tabe]

Tim Hornbaker has written a biography of Cobb that has also just been released. His book, which features extensive footnotes and sourcing, concludes that Cobb was racist. Not so much in the KKK mold but in the "I'm white and you should act with deference to me at all times." mold. I asked Tim about this other new book and he told me he doesn't understand how anyone could draw the "not a racist" conclusion.

Hornbaker's book, btw, is fantastic.

FWIW, he agrees that Cobb was not a dirty player.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

+1 as to what is said by his contemporaries in "The Glory of Their Times." The reviewer is also totally off base with regard to his contention that Cobb played in a time when high averages were common. In actual point of fact, Cobb played throughout the heart of the greatest pitchers' era of all time. He is, in fact, just one of 8 players who created more than 200% of the runs an average player would create during the same playing era, a Bill James stat which I consider the best yardstick to compare players across eras, playing their careers under vastly different conditions. Interestingly enough, when you utilize the "neutralization" factor at baseballreference.com, under neutral conditions, to perform up to the equivalent standards of the Georgia Peach, a player would have to hit .400 or better not 3, as Cobb did, but seven times, with an additional 3 seasons of .390 or better!

His legend is growing, and deservedly so.

May your collecting fill you with joy,

Larry

[Butch7999]

We thought Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Butch7999

We though Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

In the case of Tim Hornbaker's book, at least, he used a ton of primary sources from Cobb's time. In particular, he made use of articles from African-American newspapers that have gone largely ignored previously.

The "Cobb was a racist" thing isn't just from Stump (who was a fraud) and it's not just from old guys airing a 50-year old grudge.