Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

"I don't shill my own auctions, and I cancel bids if they even give an appearance of shilling. Are you saying that I'm not selling correctly?"

No. What I'm saying is artificially inflating an auction can be done by someone other than the buyer or seller and you might never know it happened. And it wouldn't be strictly defined by the law as shilling, but the effect would be the same to the buyer of the card.

I could bid on your auctions just to jack up the prices of your cards which I also happen to be selling at the moment for the benefit of the my own cards. How would you ever know? I just think it's a slippery slope and something that can't possibly be enforced. The lure of the mighty dollar will always win.

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

But if you bid on my auctions just to jack up the price, you run the risk of actually winning the auction, in which case I'd expect you to pay.

I understand what you're saying that an auction price isn't necessarily the true value of an item, but I think you'd have to agree that the scenario you present is far different than if I run up my own auction, or if I let my wife/kid/friend do it for me.

Ken

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Nah man, what you're describing is basically "bidding". There's a world of difference between somebody bidding on a card because it's going too cheap, and intend to pay for it if they were to win (might as well just outlaw auctions right now, if that's the case)...............then a dealer shilling up his own auction.

A huge difference!

Dave - surely you understand that if we can't get into the mind of a complete stranger to identify his motives for bidding on an item, then all shilling should be legal?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by SAllen2556

I'm confused. You're saying it's ok for me to bid up (shill) an auction in which I am neither the buyer nor the seller - just to protect the value of my card, but the actual owner of the card does not have that right to shill his own card?

If I shill your auction, yes I could win it and have to pay. But that's ok, because I've accomplished my goal of protecting the value of my card. But if I shill my own card I run the same risk of winning it, don't I? And if I shill my own item, aren't I also just protecting the value of my card? I don't see a real distinction.

If you're outlawing shilling your own card, then you should outlaw shilling cards you don't really want, but are bidding on just to jack up the price. But you could never enforce it. Which is why shilling your own card should be legal......I think...maybe.

I basically agree...if you prepared to have to pay 20% if you 'win' your own card I really think all of this is a non issue..

I guess if an auction house says 'shilling is allowed but the bidder who wins will have to pay 20%'..i would be confortable bidding knowing that if the owner of the card was really bidding on his own card he was willing to risk 20% on top of his bid if he 'wins' the card...that to me is a legitimate bid for him to take the risk.


Standard language on most AH contracts : Neither you or nor anyone on your behalf acting as your agent may bid on Memoribilia you have tendered to us. If you violate this provision of the Agreement, and you have the highest bid on an item or lot, you will pay us the commission and Buyers Premium on the item or lot upon which you are the highest bidder. There are no exceptions to this provision"

So even though they forbid it..they still allow it to go through if you pay the bp....I don't see a problem with that...that's shilling ..the seller wiling to eat 20%...then that item was going way to low for him....if seller thinks the item is about to sell 10% under market you think he will want to pay 20% to preserve that? no way..he will let it go..

[Qcards]

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Qcards

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

How about I offer Rick Probstein the opportunity to take a polygraph test and answer a few questions about fraud? If he passes he gets $100,000. If the results show that he has engaged in fraud he pays me $20,000. Since he hasn't done anything wrong this should be an easy pay day, right? Maybe you can get in on the bet?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Qcards

he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

[Peter_Spaeth]

God forbid a business owner monitor his own business to make sure it is operating honestly. Yeah that is expecting WAY too much.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I said I was done with this thread, but I need to address this statement because it keeps getting repeated over and over by multiple individuals.

Nobody is asking Rick to monitor his auctions. We're asking that he do something about those who are caught red handed shilling their own auctions (like blocking consignors). Is that really asking too much or am I being unreasonable?

No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Leon

No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?

Not attacking you on this Leon, but a thought for Probstein. Blocking the bidder is a joke - how hard is it for the "shiller" to create a new account? If he really wants to clean it up he needs to start blocking consignors who have the shilled auctions. Before anyone gets to crazy with me on this - I'm not saying he should immediately ban consignors of all suspect auctions, but he can certainly ban those who have multiple auctions that display this suspect bidding activity.

[bbeck]

[QUOTE=Leon;1367663]No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?[/QUOTE

I find it hard to believe his block bidder list is solely predicated on possible shill bidders, more likely on bidders who have called him out on specific issues they have had with him or accused him of wrong doings. He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by bbeck

He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.

As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

Take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'Emerging Verticals' program, you are part of the 'Bent Over Vertically' program.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Qcards

I read these threads where Rick is accused of shilling and I don’t really get it.

I am a regular consignor to Rick. I send him my stuff, he scans it, lists it and sends me the funds, minus his fee, after the auction is over.

My items generally go for market value and I am happy with his services.

If you look at the amount of items he is listing and closing every day, he does not have time to monitor if people are bidding on their own items.

Call me confused, but what I "don't really get" is these kinds of justifications. What you are saying is that Rick sells my stuff fine, I get my money, so what's everyone's problem? I don't think there is ANY question about Rick getting the money for his consignees. He is obvious doing something right for his CONSIGNEES. But what about the buyers being screwed?

Sorry but to me, these kinds of posts reek of the "I'm getting mine so I don't have a problem with it" kind of response.

[calvindog]

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

Pleeeezzz, Really your post are great. They always bring a smile to my face.

Why do you think shillers pay when they win their own auction listing instead of just canceling the transaction to avoid the fees.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by calvindog

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by brob28

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

Absolutely agree with this. I have put up cards on eBay a grade level over the ones sold in those two auctions a week later at the same or lesser price and they sit and rot. I know if I am an underbidder and the next week the same card in better shape pops up for a lesser or equal price I am on it. Add to that the 'loyalists' these guys seem to have and the stinky factor goes off the charts.