Auctions End Too Late

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

+1

Thank you. I truly think they exclude a percentage of bidders who cannot stay awake past 2:00 AM. What type of transaction is conducted at 2:00AM?? Seriously, baseball card auctions are the only dealings I can think of that are conducted at TWO IN THE MORNING. If the rest of the known world has switched to a more sensible system, why haven't we?

You are making the assumption that the world lives within your hours. It does not. And I think your characterization that people who are up past 2 am have no life is... unfortunate.

I was a stock broker for 3 years before I had to retire. I worked the overnight shift, and I talked to clients all night. I placed trades all night. Why? Because I had clients living all over the world. There were American citizens all over the world. There are people in the military, American citizens, living all over the world, wherever they happen to be stationed at the time. There are people with dual citizenship that have homes in foreign countries, and they move back and forth between countries. There are people with jobs that travel a lot, and that travel will often extend beyond the contiguous 48 states. My ex-girlfriend was a model, and depending on where she was needed for a shoot, she could be in Milan, Paris, London or Chicago. There are other people, pilots, flight attendants, doctors, engineers, etc that will travel for work all over the world. Then there are people who go on vacation. Lots of Americans like to go to Europe, or Asia, or Australia, or South America. And, as was previously alluded to, your 2 am in New Jersey is 11pm in California. Your 2 am in New Jersey is 9 pm in Hawaii. All these people I mentioned don't suddenly stop conducting business at 2 am your time. We had at least 30 employees working overnight every night because there is a great demand for business being conducted during the time you are usually asleep.

If there is something in an auction that you have to own, put in your max bid price, and go to bed. If you are outbid, live with it.

If you are so worried about being shill bid, then stay up. Major auction houses like REA have two auctions a year. They publish the last day of the auction in big letters on their catalog. It's printed on their website, and it's listed on the Old Cardboard auction list, and I imagine other sites that cover the hobby like Cardboard Connection, Beckett, etc. You have vacation days, right? Use one if you absolutely have to have something, and you need to be there late to bid. Otherwise, don't, and wait for the item to come up again somewhere else. Or, just accept the fact that you were not meant to own the item. We don't always get what we want.

But to suggest that the entire industry change how it does business because you can't stay up a couple extra hours is absurd. I don't see the auction houses bemoaning lost revenue. They're breaking records left and right, and their consignors must be doing well, otherwise they wouldn't keep coming back.

Now you know there are other transactions being conducted at 2 am. Stock trades, ETF trades, options trades, futures trades. Lots is going on in the world while you are sleeping.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no personal knowledge or experience, but I doubt auction houses gain much by running things until the crack of dawn. If there were a fixed earlier closing time, I think the same bids that came in late would have come in earlier. And maybe more from people who don't want to either stay up late or place a max bid. It seems to me late-running auctions are a holdover from the telephone days where maybe it made more sense because it was hard to get through on the final night.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You are making the assumption that the world lives within your hours. It does not. And I think your characterization that people who are up past 2 am have no life is... unfortunate.

I was a stock broker for 3 years before I had to retire. I worked the overnight shift, and I talked to clients all night. I placed trades all night. Why? Because I had clients living all over the world. There were American citizens all over the world. There are people in the military, American citizens, living all over the world, wherever they happen to be stationed at the time. There are people with dual citizenship that have homes in foreign countries, and they move back and forth between countries. There are people with jobs that travel a lot, and that travel will often extend beyond the contiguous 48 states. My ex-girlfriend was a model, and depending on where she was needed for a shoot, she could be in Milan, Paris, London or Chicago. There are other people, pilots, flight attendants, doctors, engineers, etc that will travel for work all over the world. Then there are people who go on vacation. Lots of Americans like to go to Europe, or Asia, or Australia, or South America. And, as was previously alluded to, your 2 am in New Jersey is 11pm in California. Your 2 am in New Jersey is 9 pm in Hawaii. All these people I mentioned don't suddenly stop conducting business at 2 am your time. We had at least 30 employees working overnight every night because there is a great demand for business being conducted during the time you are usually asleep.

If there is something in an auction that you have to own, put in your max bid price, and go to bed. If you are outbid, live with it.

If you are so worried about being shill bid, then stay up. Major auction houses like REA have two auctions a year. They publish the last day of the auction in big letters on their catalog. It's printed on their website, and it's listed on the Old Cardboard auction list, and I imagine other sites that cover the hobby like Cardboard Connection, Beckett, etc. You have vacation days, right? Use one if you absolutely have to have something, and you need to be there late to bid. Otherwise, don't, and wait for the item to come up again somewhere else. Or, just accept the fact that you were not meant to own the item. We don't always get what we want.

But to suggest that the entire industry change how it does business because you can't stay up a couple extra hours is absurd. I don't see the auction houses bemoaning lost revenue. They're breaking records left and right, and their consignors must be doing well, otherwise they wouldn't keep coming back.

Now you know there are other transactions being conducted at 2 am. Stock trades, ETF trades, options trades, futures trades. Lots is going on in the world while you are sleeping.

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

Agree with this.

Whoever bids last has the advantage, like last ups in the bottom of the 9th.

No obvious way to fix that.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bxb

Agree with this.

Whoever bids last has the advantage, like last ups in the bottom of the 9th.

No obvious way to fix that.

It's not like "last up in the bottom of the 9th" at all. The home team can win it in the bottom of the ninth without the visiting team ever coming to bat again. In an auction, there is nothing preventing the participants from bidding at the very end if they so choose. If they've placed just one bid on that lot, they are entitled to bid after 9pm, right up until the auction closes.

In an auction setting, somebody that stays up late really doesn't have an advantage. For example:

Bidder A put their max bid in at 3pm on auction closing day.
Bidder B is staying up late. They put a bid in before 9pm, and it was immediately outbid by Bidder A.

Now extra time after 9pm starts. For the sake of brevity, we'll say that only Bidder A and Bidder B are left. Bidder B decides what they're willing to pay for the item. Bidder A decided their maximum earlier in the day.

It's very simple. If Bidder B is willing to put in a bid that is higher than Bidder A's maximum bid, they will win the item. If they do not put in a bid exceeding Bidder A's max bid, then Bidder A will win.

What would have changed had Bidder A been there? Nothing if they were honest with themselves, and put in what was truly their highest bid. If they put in $4,000 was the highest they were willing to pay on an item, and Bidder B put in a bid of $4,100, Bidder A isn't going to pay anymore. They told the system the most they were willing to pay.

The system worked.

Bidder B wins the item because they were willing to pay more than Bidder A. That Bidder A was not there to witness Bidder B winning the item is irrelevant.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't get why this is a difficult concept. It's not like "last up in the bottom of the 9th" at all.

Bidder A put their max bid in at 3pm on auction closing day.
Bidder B is staying up late. They put a bid in before 9pm, and it was immediately outbid by Bidder A.

Now extra time after 9pm starts. For the sake of brevity, we'll say that only Bidder A and Bidder B are left. Bidder B decides what they're willing to pay for the item. Bidder A decided their maximum earlier in the day.

It's very simple. If Bidder B is willing to put in a bid that is higher than Bidder A's maximum bid, they will win the item. If they do not put in a bid exceeding Bidder A's max bid, then Bidder A will win.

What would have changed had Bidder A been there? Nothing if they were honest with themselves, and put in what was truly their highest bid. If they put in $4,000 was the highest they were willing to pay on an item, and Bidder B put in a bid of $4,100, Bidder A isn't going to pay anymore. They told the system the most they were willing to pay.

The system worked.

Bidder B wins the item because they were willing to pay more than Bidder A. That Bidder A was not there to witness Bidder B winning the item is irrelevant.

Bidder A would have bid more but he fell asleep at 2am and didn't want to use the max bid feature, no matter how safe it is. From what I have experienced, spirited bidding drives prices up more than being able to stay awake the longest. But what do I know anyway??

[RGold]

Bidder A or B might have models as girlfriends.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by RGold

Bidder A or B might have models as girlfriends.

Ex-girlfriends, Ronald - get it right!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

Bidder A would have bid more but he fell asleep at 2am and didn't want to use the max bid feature, no matter how safe it is. From what I have experienced, spirited bidding drives prices up more than being able to stay awake the longest. But what do I know anyway??

You know a lot, Leon. But if the bidder didn't feel comfortable doing the maximum bid thing, and they couldn't stay awake, who's to blame here? The Auction House? No. How many more options can a bidder be given? If the auction close is moved back, then you start getting bidders on the west coast, and in Hawaii that are adversely affected.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You know a lot, Leon. But if the bidder didn't feel comfortable doing the maximum bid thing, and they couldn't stay awake, who's to blame here? The Auction House? No. How many more options can a bidder be given? If the auction close is moved back, then you start getting bidders on the west coast, and in Hawaii that are adversely affected.

Not to mention Guam.

[seablaster]

Leon, if you are at liberty to comment, which group of bidders is larger in B&L? East coast or west coast bidders?

[Jobu]

Spirited bidding is good.

Not having auctions end at 5:00 am is also good.

A fixed end time is a bad idea because those who like to bid one increment at a time instead of using a max bid may lose the item to snipers (and the auction house and consigner then lose those extra bids).

I see the solution as being a combination of several of the things mentioned by others:

1) 5-minute extended-bidding intervals because 15-minute intervals draw out the auction too much,

2) the entire auction closes at the same time to allow people to shift limited funds when they reach their absolute limit on an item(s), and

3) following 1-hour of extended bidding, only bids over a set amount ($500? $1000?) will extend the entire auction (bids on ALL items will be allowed as long as the auction remains open but only bids on items over the set amount will cause an extension).

This would make a faster auction that ends earlier, allows back-and-forth bidding thanks to the shorter extended periods, doesn't keep anyone from getting an additional bid in when outbid thanks to a fixed end time, and of course still allows for the use of max bids.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

No, I completely understood your point. I'm not an idiot. And by the way, your statement "99.5% of East Coast bidders are being excluded from the bidding process" is patently false. First of all, it's a made up statement. You pulled that number out of thin air to support your complaint. It has NO factual basis whatsoever. None.

You have no idea how many east coast bidders stay up later when an auction from a major auction house is coming to an end. The ONLY input you have thus far is from the few people that have provided statements in this topic. I promise you that if all but a half percent of east coast bidders were being excluded, the major auction houses would immediately make a change, because the amount of income that they could conceivably be sacrificing would be enormous. But that is not happening. Why? Because, again, viable options were suggested to you-placing your max bid on the item you're wanting to buy, and going to bed, is a perfectly acceptable option. If I want a nice Lou Gehrig 1934 Goudey that's up for auction, and I can't be at my computer that late, I look at the card, and then I look at the recent sales history for cards of similar quality. Then, I figure what I'm willing to pay to acquire that card, and I enter that maximum bid. If it's that important that I participate in late bidding, I stay up, and take the next day off. I never had any trouble getting a day off if I wanted it.

If neither of those are options for you, you will need to look elsewhere for that card, because you're not getting it from that auction.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If neither of those are options for you, you will need to look elsewhere for that card, because you're not getting it from that auction.

Exactly! You're excluding bidders. You (and most auction houses) are essentially saying, "If you don't want to stay up until 3:00AM don't bid." Why would any seller in their right mind make such a ludicrous statement and condition of sale?? You're clearly excluding bidders.


I still don't think you're getting this - obviously there are ways around the arbitrary encumbrance of inconvenient auction times, but why put the arbitrary rule in the way of bidders to begin with?

Are there more bidders available to bid at 3:00AM EST or 11:00 PM EST? I'll give you a hint, it's 11:00PM. That's undeniable. Why end an auction when there are less bidders available to bid? Seriously, this isn't rocket science.

Yes, you can place a max bid, but how many time have you placed a max bid and have been outbid by one increment and thought, "Damn, I should've gone higher." I know I do it several times each year, and as other users have commented, it's apparent that this is a common occurrence. These bidders were denied the ability to increase their bid because of an arbitrary rule that has absolutely no benefit to the consignor, bidder or auction house.

You can argue, well if you don't stay up late enough you obviously didn't want the card enough. Why is a person's sleep schedule a prerequisite to buying a card? Is it necessary? I've bought cards at the National before and I can tell you confidently that none of the dealers required me to send them an email at 3:00AM as well as pay the purchase price to buy a card.

The rule is arbitrary. No one could possibly deny that. There is no benefit whatsoever and one would very successfully argue that it eliminates the largest bidder pool in the auction.

I have yet to see any benefits to keeping an auction open until 3:00AM and any minor pseudo benefits that have been noted are clearly overshadowed by the obvious negatives.

The instructions you posted on how to overcome the obstacle of inconvenient auction times could more easily be solved by changing the auction format!