Auctions End Too Late

[Leon]

There is no definitive answer to this debate but my auction partner and I firmly believe there are more bids when folks know the end is in sight (and exactly when it is). Why not keep people interested the whole time? The days of all night auctions should come to an end, imo. And as a consignor I want everyone awake and bidding. Personally, I fell asleep, woke up and started bidding again around 130am this morning......that is crazy imo. If and when I sell my collection I will favor an auction house (if not my own) that will end lots individually. I want everyone awake and alert..... Just my opinion and I am not trying to disparage any auction house. I still bid in all of them but I end up bidding more when I stay awake and alert and "in the game".....rather than falling asleep before it ends.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is no definitive answer to this debate but my auction partner and I firmly believe there are more bids when folks know the end is in sight. Why not keep people interested the whole time? The days of all night auctions should come to an end, imo. And as a consignor I want everyone awake and bidding. Personally, I fell asleep, woke up and started bidding again around 130am......that is crazy imo. If and when I sell my collection I will favor an auction house (if not my own) that will end lots individually. I want everyone awake and alert..... Just my opinion and I am not trying to disparage any auction house. I still bid in all of them but I end up bidding more when I stay awake and alert and "in the game".....rather than falling asleep before it ends.

+1

Thank you. I truly think they exclude a percentage of bidders who cannot stay awake past 2:00 AM. What type of transaction is conducted at 2:00AM?? Seriously, baseball card auctions are the only dealings I can think of that are conducted at TWO IN THE MORNING. If the rest of the known world has switched to a more sensible system, why haven't we?

And to anyone who would argue, "put in a max bid next time!" I don't trust auctions not to shill me. Not only that, I should not have to make a wild guess at where the auction will end just because there is the possibility someone will out bid me at TWO IN THE MORNING.

[T206Collector]

I agree with the OP. Lots should end individually when there are no further bids on that lot after 15 or 30 minutes. I prefer those auctions and bid more aggressively in them. I was asleep when I got outbid on the one lot I was interested in Goldin Auctions. Might've been a different story if the lot ended individually.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

+1

Thank you. I truly think they exclude a percentage of bidders who cannot stay awake past 2:00 AM. What type of transaction is conducted at 2:00AM?? Seriously, baseball card auctions are the only dealings I can think of that are conducted at TWO IN THE MORNING. If the rest of the known world has switched to a more sensible system, why haven't we?

You are making the assumption that the world lives within your hours. It does not. And I think your characterization that people who are up past 2 am have no life is... unfortunate.

I was a stock broker for 3 years before I had to retire. I worked the overnight shift, and I talked to clients all night. I placed trades all night. Why? Because I had clients living all over the world. There were American citizens all over the world. There are people in the military, American citizens, living all over the world, wherever they happen to be stationed at the time. There are people with dual citizenship that have homes in foreign countries, and they move back and forth between countries. There are people with jobs that travel a lot, and that travel will often extend beyond the contiguous 48 states. My ex-girlfriend was a model, and depending on where she was needed for a shoot, she could be in Milan, Paris, London or Chicago. There are other people, pilots, flight attendants, doctors, engineers, etc that will travel for work all over the world. Then there are people who go on vacation. Lots of Americans like to go to Europe, or Asia, or Australia, or South America. And, as was previously alluded to, your 2 am in New Jersey is 11pm in California. Your 2 am in New Jersey is 9 pm in Hawaii. All these people I mentioned don't suddenly stop conducting business at 2 am your time. We had at least 30 employees working overnight every night because there is a great demand for business being conducted during the time you are usually asleep.

If there is something in an auction that you have to own, put in your max bid price, and go to bed. If you are outbid, live with it.

If you are so worried about being shill bid, then stay up. Major auction houses like REA have two auctions a year. They publish the last day of the auction in big letters on their catalog. It's printed on their website, and it's listed on the Old Cardboard auction list, and I imagine other sites that cover the hobby like Cardboard Connection, Beckett, etc. You have vacation days, right? Use one if you absolutely have to have something, and you need to be there late to bid. Otherwise, don't, and wait for the item to come up again somewhere else. Or, just accept the fact that you were not meant to own the item. We don't always get what we want.

But to suggest that the entire industry change how it does business because you can't stay up a couple extra hours is absurd. I don't see the auction houses bemoaning lost revenue. They're breaking records left and right, and their consignors must be doing well, otherwise they wouldn't keep coming back.

Now you know there are other transactions being conducted at 2 am. Stock trades, ETF trades, options trades, futures trades. Lots is going on in the world while you are sleeping.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I have no personal knowledge or experience, but I doubt auction houses gain much by running things until the crack of dawn. If there were a fixed earlier closing time, I think the same bids that came in late would have come in earlier. And maybe more from people who don't want to either stay up late or place a max bid. It seems to me late-running auctions are a holdover from the telephone days where maybe it made more sense because it was hard to get through on the final night.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You are making the assumption that the world lives within your hours. It does not. And I think your characterization that people who are up past 2 am have no life is... unfortunate.

I was a stock broker for 3 years before I had to retire. I worked the overnight shift, and I talked to clients all night. I placed trades all night. Why? Because I had clients living all over the world. There were American citizens all over the world. There are people in the military, American citizens, living all over the world, wherever they happen to be stationed at the time. There are people with dual citizenship that have homes in foreign countries, and they move back and forth between countries. There are people with jobs that travel a lot, and that travel will often extend beyond the contiguous 48 states. My ex-girlfriend was a model, and depending on where she was needed for a shoot, she could be in Milan, Paris, London or Chicago. There are other people, pilots, flight attendants, doctors, engineers, etc that will travel for work all over the world. Then there are people who go on vacation. Lots of Americans like to go to Europe, or Asia, or Australia, or South America. And, as was previously alluded to, your 2 am in New Jersey is 11pm in California. Your 2 am in New Jersey is 9 pm in Hawaii. All these people I mentioned don't suddenly stop conducting business at 2 am your time. We had at least 30 employees working overnight every night because there is a great demand for business being conducted during the time you are usually asleep.

If there is something in an auction that you have to own, put in your max bid price, and go to bed. If you are outbid, live with it.

If you are so worried about being shill bid, then stay up. Major auction houses like REA have two auctions a year. They publish the last day of the auction in big letters on their catalog. It's printed on their website, and it's listed on the Old Cardboard auction list, and I imagine other sites that cover the hobby like Cardboard Connection, Beckett, etc. You have vacation days, right? Use one if you absolutely have to have something, and you need to be there late to bid. Otherwise, don't, and wait for the item to come up again somewhere else. Or, just accept the fact that you were not meant to own the item. We don't always get what we want.

But to suggest that the entire industry change how it does business because you can't stay up a couple extra hours is absurd. I don't see the auction houses bemoaning lost revenue. They're breaking records left and right, and their consignors must be doing well, otherwise they wouldn't keep coming back.

Now you know there are other transactions being conducted at 2 am. Stock trades, ETF trades, options trades, futures trades. Lots is going on in the world while you are sleeping.

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

[bxb]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

Agree with this.

Whoever bids last has the advantage, like last ups in the bottom of the 9th.

No obvious way to fix that.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bxb

Agree with this.

Whoever bids last has the advantage, like last ups in the bottom of the 9th.

No obvious way to fix that.

It's not like "last up in the bottom of the 9th" at all. The home team can win it in the bottom of the ninth without the visiting team ever coming to bat again. In an auction, there is nothing preventing the participants from bidding at the very end if they so choose. If they've placed just one bid on that lot, they are entitled to bid after 9pm, right up until the auction closes.

In an auction setting, somebody that stays up late really doesn't have an advantage. For example:

Bidder A put their max bid in at 3pm on auction closing day.
Bidder B is staying up late. They put a bid in before 9pm, and it was immediately outbid by Bidder A.

Now extra time after 9pm starts. For the sake of brevity, we'll say that only Bidder A and Bidder B are left. Bidder B decides what they're willing to pay for the item. Bidder A decided their maximum earlier in the day.

It's very simple. If Bidder B is willing to put in a bid that is higher than Bidder A's maximum bid, they will win the item. If they do not put in a bid exceeding Bidder A's max bid, then Bidder A will win.

What would have changed had Bidder A been there? Nothing if they were honest with themselves, and put in what was truly their highest bid. If they put in $4,000 was the highest they were willing to pay on an item, and Bidder B put in a bid of $4,100, Bidder A isn't going to pay anymore. They told the system the most they were willing to pay.

The system worked.

Bidder B wins the item because they were willing to pay more than Bidder A. That Bidder A was not there to witness Bidder B winning the item is irrelevant.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I don't get why this is a difficult concept. It's not like "last up in the bottom of the 9th" at all.

Bidder A put their max bid in at 3pm on auction closing day.
Bidder B is staying up late. They put a bid in before 9pm, and it was immediately outbid by Bidder A.

Now extra time after 9pm starts. For the sake of brevity, we'll say that only Bidder A and Bidder B are left. Bidder B decides what they're willing to pay for the item. Bidder A decided their maximum earlier in the day.

It's very simple. If Bidder B is willing to put in a bid that is higher than Bidder A's maximum bid, they will win the item. If they do not put in a bid exceeding Bidder A's max bid, then Bidder A will win.

What would have changed had Bidder A been there? Nothing if they were honest with themselves, and put in what was truly their highest bid. If they put in $4,000 was the highest they were willing to pay on an item, and Bidder B put in a bid of $4,100, Bidder A isn't going to pay anymore. They told the system the most they were willing to pay.

The system worked.

Bidder B wins the item because they were willing to pay more than Bidder A. That Bidder A was not there to witness Bidder B winning the item is irrelevant.

Bidder A would have bid more but he fell asleep at 2am and didn't want to use the max bid feature, no matter how safe it is. From what I have experienced, spirited bidding drives prices up more than being able to stay awake the longest. But what do I know anyway??

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I think you're not understanding my point.

We're not talking about the (very) small percentage of bidders who work until 1:00AM or 2:00AM, I myself am at the office until 1:00AM or later some nights. I'm talking about the 99.95% of East Coast bidders who are being excluded from the bidding process.

No, I completely understood your point. I'm not an idiot. And by the way, your statement "99.5% of East Coast bidders are being excluded from the bidding process" is patently false. First of all, it's a made up statement. You pulled that number out of thin air to support your complaint. It has NO factual basis whatsoever. None.

You have no idea how many east coast bidders stay up later when an auction from a major auction house is coming to an end. The ONLY input you have thus far is from the few people that have provided statements in this topic. I promise you that if all but a half percent of east coast bidders were being excluded, the major auction houses would immediately make a change, because the amount of income that they could conceivably be sacrificing would be enormous. But that is not happening. Why? Because, again, viable options were suggested to you-placing your max bid on the item you're wanting to buy, and going to bed, is a perfectly acceptable option. If I want a nice Lou Gehrig 1934 Goudey that's up for auction, and I can't be at my computer that late, I look at the card, and then I look at the recent sales history for cards of similar quality. Then, I figure what I'm willing to pay to acquire that card, and I enter that maximum bid. If it's that important that I participate in late bidding, I stay up, and take the next day off. I never had any trouble getting a day off if I wanted it.

If neither of those are options for you, you will need to look elsewhere for that card, because you're not getting it from that auction.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

If neither of those are options for you, you will need to look elsewhere for that card, because you're not getting it from that auction.

Exactly! You're excluding bidders. You (and most auction houses) are essentially saying, "If you don't want to stay up until 3:00AM don't bid." Why would any seller in their right mind make such a ludicrous statement and condition of sale?? You're clearly excluding bidders.


I still don't think you're getting this - obviously there are ways around the arbitrary encumbrance of inconvenient auction times, but why put the arbitrary rule in the way of bidders to begin with?

Are there more bidders available to bid at 3:00AM EST or 11:00 PM EST? I'll give you a hint, it's 11:00PM. That's undeniable. Why end an auction when there are less bidders available to bid? Seriously, this isn't rocket science.

Yes, you can place a max bid, but how many time have you placed a max bid and have been outbid by one increment and thought, "Damn, I should've gone higher." I know I do it several times each year, and as other users have commented, it's apparent that this is a common occurrence. These bidders were denied the ability to increase their bid because of an arbitrary rule that has absolutely no benefit to the consignor, bidder or auction house.

You can argue, well if you don't stay up late enough you obviously didn't want the card enough. Why is a person's sleep schedule a prerequisite to buying a card? Is it necessary? I've bought cards at the National before and I can tell you confidently that none of the dealers required me to send them an email at 3:00AM as well as pay the purchase price to buy a card.

The rule is arbitrary. No one could possibly deny that. There is no benefit whatsoever and one would very successfully argue that it eliminates the largest bidder pool in the auction.

I have yet to see any benefits to keeping an auction open until 3:00AM and any minor pseudo benefits that have been noted are clearly overshadowed by the obvious negatives.

The instructions you posted on how to overcome the obstacle of inconvenient auction times could more easily be solved by changing the auction format!

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Leon

There is no definitive answer to this debate but my auction partner and I firmly believe there are more bids when folks know the end is in sight. Why not keep people interested the whole time? The days of all night auctions should come to an end, imo. And as a consignor I want everyone awake and bidding. Personally, I fell asleep, woke up and started bidding again around 130am this morning......that is crazy imo. If and when I sell my collection I will favor an auction house (if not my own) that will end lots individually. I want everyone awake and alert..... Just my opinion and I am not trying to disparage any auction house. I still bid in all of them but I end up bidding more when I stay awake and alert and "in the game".....rather than falling asleep before it ends.

Amen. Ending the lots individually is the way to go IMO.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Another vote for lots ending individually here. Maybe if enough of us speak up, more of the auction houses will go this route. At this point, it's still under 50% of the major auction houses.

[benchod]

I think it's ridiculous. I have really cut way down on bidding in auctions that go on forever including REA.

[Jay Wolt]

To me its simple.....
If you trust the auction house, place a max bid before you call it a night
If you don't trust the auction house, then you shouldn't be bidding at all

[z28jd]

I think it's the 15 minute rule that is too much. Why not five minutes without a bid? If you get two chuckleheads trying for one lot at the very end and they keep waiting the 15 minutes to bid, then everyone has to wait. I won something on LOTG, but it was already at my max bid around noon yesterday, so no reason to watch.

On the flip side, I've sat here watching multiple lots for hours and that's always annoying. Auction houses are not East Coast friendly, that is for sure.

[MikeKam]

I set max bids on two auctions and was outbid at 2:40AM, but I probably would have still bid more. Not really unfair, but guys that manage to wait out the entire auction have the luxury of keeping on clicking the bid button until it finally surpasses my max and I can't react to that.

I prefer auctions that end by individual lot and I doubt it really affects prices. I also don't mind what Clean Sweep does with penalizing bids with extra buyers premium after a certain time to discourage those late bids.

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

To me its simple.....
If you trust the auction house, place a max bid before you call it a night
If you don't trust the auction house, then you shouldn't be bidding at all

+1

[buymycards]

In my case it doesn't have anything to do with being able to stay awake. I have to get up at 5:00 every day, including many Saturdays, so I can be at work at 6. So, if I want to be productive at work I cannot stay up much past 11:00. I don't know how someone can hold down a job and still stay up to bid on these auctions. My best option is to place a max bid and see what happens.

Rick

[Iron Horse]

Agree 100%. I like auctions that end lots individually. They all should do it that way. What's the point of keeping everyone awake???

[ksabet]

I know Huggins ends theirs on a lot by lot basis and it seems to work for them.

I will put in max bids with houses I trust. Last night I won 6 lots all with max bids in LOTG. I don't know Al personally but the members on this site have made me feel more than comfortable doing this in his auctions.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I know Huggins ends theirs on a lot by lot basis and it seems to work for them.

I will put in max bids with houses I trust. Last night I won 6 lots all with max bids in LOTG. I don't know Al personally but the members on this site have made me feel more than comfortable doing this in his auctions.

I agree with Kiya, I won both my items with Max bids I put in 2 weeks ago and won them for less than my max, so it truly is a trust issue. Same thing with REA, won my only item I put in a bid 3 weeks earlier and won, getting it for $400 under my max bid.

[clydepepper]

I try to have my BST & EBAY auctions end during hours when I'm awake. If I lived on the West Coast, I'm not sure I would adjust the time for the bidders, but I guess the response I got would determine that.

I am getting too old to stay up through the night - I can always check the results in the morning. At this point in my life sleep is more important than any cardboard.

[steve_a]

My preference is lot by lot but I understand the drawbacks to it. I wonder if a hybrid system would work. AH software should be able to determine if a bidder has been active on any lot in the last, say, 15 minutes. Any one lot could close if all the bidders on that lot hadn't bid on any lot in the last 15. The countdown clock would be reset for each lot as an initial bidder bids anywhere. I think that solves the problem of being able to bid elsewhere once you lose a preferred lot. Make sense?