Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[the 'stache]

Oh, I'm going to get into the Jeter vs Griffey Jr discussion. There is no comparison between them. Ken Griffey Jr may be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. Jeter..isn't.

Here's something to chew on.

Seasons with 100 + strikeouts:
Derek Jeter 9
Ken Griffey Jr 5

Career home runs:
Derek Jeter 259
Ken Griffey Jr 630

Derek Jeter is 14th all-time in strikeouts. How does a guy who has hit more than 20 home runs in a season 3 times have 1,819 strike outs?

Oh yes, we're going to dive deeply into this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James has an interesting analysis where, as of 2002, he claims Craig Biggio was better than Griffey Jr. I will see if I can find it online. But the essence of it was that he pointed out a lot of categories where Griffey didn't do so well, aside from HR and RBI. Yeah, perhaps like asking other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James has an interesting analysis where, as of 2002, he claims Craig Biggio was better than Griffey Jr. I will see if I can find it online. But the essence of it was that he pointed out a lot of categories where Griffey didn't do so well, aside from HR and RBI. Yeah, perhaps like asking other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play.

That's so wrong, Peter. Shame on you.

Of course, I have been known to use that one...from time to time. Hey, it's been nearly 150 years now. Once you cross the hundred year mark, I think the "too soon?" question no longer applies.

[the 'stache]

Oh, yeah, my reason for responding, Peter's Summer Stock performance not withstanding...I think Biggio has been underrated by a lot of baseball fans.

His career OPS is only .791, but he's got to be one of the top two or three most versatile members of the 3,000 hit club, if not the most versatile. He played second and catcher primarily, but he also played 363 games, more than two seasons worth of games, in the outfield. And he was very good defensively.

When you break his Hall worthiness down...

3,000 + hits
668 doubles
291 home runs and 414 stolen bases
4 Gold Gloves, 5 Silver Slugger Awards, 2 top 5 MVP finishes as a second baseman.

He's the kind of guy I want on my team. Hustle, power, speed, versatility, and always a dirty uniform. Give me a guy that gives 110% every time.

One thing Biggio and Yount both had in common that most players today could take lessons from-they never half-a__ed it to first base on a ground ball out. They ran. Those guys played under the assumption that they could either beat the throw, or that somebody might double clutch, or not make a clean catch.

Those are the guys I'd build my team around. The Braves had their little fun fest with Glavine, Maddux and Cox, time to put Biggio and Bagwell in together. I've always been super impressed with both those guys.

[the 'stache]

Bill James is likely pointing out stats that suffered in the second half of his career. Because at age 30, I thought Griffey was going to break Hank Aaron's record. His stats at 30 were downright frightening:

.299 AVG, 1,063 runs, 1,742 hits, 320 doubles, 30 triples, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, 167 stolen bases, .948 OPS. 7 Silver Sluggers, 10 All Star Games, 10 Gold Gloves and an MVP Award. His home run totals from 1993 forward: 45 in 1993, 40 in 1994, 17 in 1995, 49 in 1996, 56 in 1997, 56 in 1998, 48 in 1999.

He had 3,316 total bases at age 30. If only he could have stayed healthy.

I mean no disrespect to Derek Jeter, who has been a great baseball player for a long time, a player that will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. But Griffey was one of those transcendent players. He was my generation's Willie Mays.

Between 1996 and 1999, 4 seasons, Junior hit .294 with 209 home runs and 567 RBIs. Unreal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level."

Here is a link to the actual analysis on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level."

Here is a link to the actual analysis on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false

Biggio was sneaky good. And one word I love using to describe far too few baseball players is utility. Biggio brought utility to the team. The Brewers have a guy that reminds me a lot of Biggio in Jonathan Lucroy. He's really coming into his own. He's a really good defensive catcher (will probably win the Gold Glove in the NL this season). He's going to hit between 15-20 home runs. Luc's already got 38 doubles, 56 runs and 54 RBI. And he's walked 45 times while striking out only 54 times.

Luc's rookie year, 2011, he hit .265 with 12 HR and 59 RBI
2012 he hit .320 with 12 HR and 58 RBI. Missed more than a month and a half with a broken bone in his hand.
2013 he hit .280 with 18 HR and 82 RBI. He stole 9 bases in 10 tries.
2014 he's hitting .307 with 12 HR and 53 RBI, and an .852 OPS. He catches primarily, plays first base. He can also play third base, but has only done so in spring training.

Biggio was a throwback player. That's the feel I get when Lucroy plays. And I love those kinds of players. They make the game fun. Those are the guys that will do whatever it takes to win.

I think I'll do an analysis of Biggio vs Jeter, too. That sounds interesting to me.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Oh, I'm going to get into the Jeter vs Griffey Jr discussion. There is no comparison between them. Ken Griffey Jr may be one of the top 5 offensive players of the last 50 years. Jeter..isn't.

Here's something to chew on.

Seasons with 100 + strikeouts:
Derek Jeter 9
Ken Griffey Jr 5

Career home runs:
Derek Jeter 259
Ken Griffey Jr 630

Derek Jeter is 14th all-time in strikeouts. How does a guy who has hit more than 20 home runs in a season 3 times have 1,819 strike outs?

Oh yes, we're going to dive deeply into this.

I don't think it is fair at all to compare two players ONLY using home runs and strikeouts. I think everyone here will agree.

Besides, Ken Griffey Jr. struck out MORE that Derek Jeter did. Griffey struck out 1,779 times in 11,304 plate appearances; or 15.7% of the time. Jeter struck out 1,819 times in 12,435 plate appearances; or 14.6% of the time. The amount of 100+ strike out seasons is as relevant as the amount of 172 hit season. It isn't relevant at all.

Here is a comparison of the two players over their 162 game average:

Hits:
Derek Jeter: 205
Ken Griffey Jr.: 169

Runs:
Derek Jeter: 115
Ken Griffey Jr.: 101

Doubles:
Derek Jeter: 32
Ken Griffey Jr.: 32

Home Runs:
Derek Jeter: 15
Ken Griffey Jr.: 38

RBI:
Derek Jeter: 77
Ken Griffey Jr.: 111

Stolen Bases:
Derek Jeter: 21
Ken Griffey Jr.: 11

Strike Outs
Derek Jeter: 109
Ken Griffey Jr.: 108

Batting Average:
Derek Jeter: .311
Ken Griffey Jr.: .284

OPS:
Derek Jeter: .821
Ken Griffey Jr.: .907

The two are nearly identical except Griffey hit more home runs, Jeter hit more singles and stole more bases. It's a toss up as to which a coach would prefer. From purely a statistical standpoint, Derek Jeter wins out. He has a marginally higher Offensive WAR, but it's so close that it's almost negligible. Personally, I would take Jeter because he plays shortstop, but they would both help a team.

[Peter_Spaeth]

FWIW, in my opinion Griffey was a GREAT center fielder, whilst Jeter was an above average shortstop. I would take Griffey over Jeter, but overall I rank Jeter high among SSs.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I don't think it is fair at all to compare two players ONLY using home runs and strikeouts. I think everyone here will agree.

Besides, Ken Griffey Jr. struck out MORE that Derek Jeter did. Griffey struck out 1,779 times in 11,304 plate appearances; or 15.7% of the time. Jeter struck out 1,819 times in 12,435 plate appearances; or 14.6% of the time. The amount of 100+ strike out seasons is as relevant as the amount of 172 hit season. It isn't relevant at all.

Here is a comparison of the two players over their 162 game average:

Hits:
Derek Jeter: 205
Ken Griffey Jr.: 169

Runs:
Derek Jeter: 115
Ken Griffey Jr.: 101

Doubles:
Derek Jeter: 32
Ken Griffey Jr.: 32

Home Runs:
Derek Jeter: 15
Ken Griffey Jr.: 38

RBI:
Derek Jeter: 77
Ken Griffey Jr.: 111

Stolen Bases:
Derek Jeter: 21
Ken Griffey Jr.: 11

Strike Outs
Derek Jeter: 109
Ken Griffey Jr.: 108

Batting Average:
Derek Jeter: .311
Ken Griffey Jr.: .284

OPS:
Derek Jeter: .821
Ken Griffey Jr.: .907

The two are nearly identical except Griffey hit more home runs, Jeter hit more singles and stole more bases. It's a toss up as to which a coach would prefer. From purely a statistical standpoint, Derek Jeter wins out. He has a marginally higher Offensive WAR, but it's so close that it's almost negligible. Personally, I would take Jeter because he plays shortstop, but they would both help a team.

Griffey battled one injury after another in the second half of his career from diving all over the outfield, and over walls to rob home runs. The point is that Jeter shouldn't have struck out as much as he has. He's struck out more than every single member of the 3,000 hit club. That Jeter has struck out more than Griffey is absolutely funny.

You skipped OBP. Jeter's OBP is only 7 points higher than Griffey Jr's.

OBP:
Griffey: .370
Jeter: .379

OBP is a much better metric than batting average. While batting average will always be considered, and important, on base percentage is the best metric. And Jeter, who's got a much higher batting average, has almost the same on base percentage as Griffey. So, Griffey gets on base nearly as often as Jeter.

When it comes to power, though, there is no comparison:

SLG:
Griffey: .538
Jeter: .432

And again, his slugging dropped, as did most of his metrics, because of the injuries he fought through. At age 31, Griffey's SLG was .568.

Jeter is a singles hitter. Griffey, who has 370 more home runs, has nearly the identical number of doubles.

Doubles:
Jeter: 538
Griffey: 524

And one thing we haven't mentioned that puts Griffey way way ahead of Jeter-defense. Griffey Jr is defensively one of the best center fielders of all-time. Jeter is an average, maybe slightly above average defensive shortstop. Griffey, who is overall a better offensive force than Jeter, is a much better defensive contributor.

There is simply no contest. Griffey is the superior player. Again, Jeter is great, but Griffey Jr was a mega star.

Consider their best seasons by WAR. Remember a WAR of 5+ is All Star level. A WAR of 8+ is MVP level (these are per Baseball Reference)

Jeter's best WARs:
1999 8.0
1998 7.5
2009 6.5
2006 5.5
2001 5.2

Griffey Jr's best WARs:
1996 9.7
1997 9.1
1993 8.7
1991 7.1
1994 6.9
1998 6.6
1992 5.8
2000 5.5
1990 5.2

Jeter had 5 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Jeter had one season (1999) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

Griffey Jr had 9 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Griffey Jr had three seasons (1996, 1997 and 1993) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

So, to summarize:
Derek Jeter is an outstanding hitter with excellent speed. He won the 1996 American League Rookie of the Year. He is a lifetime .311 hitter. He has hit 259 home runs, and stolen 356 bases. His 3,432 hits is sixth all-time, and his 1,914 runs scored is 10th all-time. He is a 14 time All Star. He has won 5 Silver Slugger Awards and 5 Gold Gloves. He has never won an MVP, but has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 3 times. He has led the American League in runs scored once, and in hits twice in his 20 year career. Derek Jeter has struck out more times than any other member of the 3,000 hit club. He has had 5 seasons with a WAR figure of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He has had one WAR figure of 8.0 or higher (which is considered MVP level).

Ken Griffey Jr was a complete player with great power, speed and defensive ability. Griffey is a lifetime .284 hitter with 630 home runs and 1,836 RBI. His 630 home runs is sixth best all-time, and he is thirteenth in RBIs. Griffey is a 13 time All Star. He has won 7 Silver Slugger Awards and 10 Gold Gloves. He has led the American League in runs scored once, RBI once, Slugging once, and total bases twice. He has also won 4 home run titles. Ken Griffey Jr's 382 home runs were the most by an American Leaguer in the 1990s. Only Mark McGwire hit more in the decade (405). McGwire played in both leagues. Ken Griffey Jr was the 1997 American League MVP. He has finished in the top 5 in voting four other times. Griffey Jr has finished with a WAR figure of 8.0 or higher 3 times (which is considered MVP level). He has had six other seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He also had a 4.9 WAR rating in 1999. Ken Griffey is a member of the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.


Jeter is a great player. But Griffey across the boards is just better. He has more Silver Slugger Awards, twice as many Gold Glove Awards (and Jeter's are questioned by many). Jeter has been selected to the All Star Game one more time. Griffey Jr has won an MVP while Jeter has not, though Jeter may have been a better choice in 2006 than Justin Morneau. Still, Griffey Jr has had more WAR 8+ (3 to 1) and WAR 5+ (9 to 5).

JAWS (Jaffe WAR Scoring System) has rated these players:
Derek Jeter 12th best shortstop behind Alan Trammell. Top 5: Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr, George Davis, Robin Yount

Ken Griffey Jr 5th best center fielder (behind Mickey Mantle). Top 5: Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey Jr.

7 year peak WAR:
Derek Jeter 42.2
Ken Griffey Jr 53.9

Pretty much any way you slice it, Griffey is simply better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Of course Jeter also is one of the best postseason players of all time. Worth mention.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course Jeter also is one of the best postseason players of all time. Worth mention.

That's a bit of a stretch, I think. He's a career .308 hitter with a .465 slugging % in the playoffs. Those are fine numbers, to be sure. But they pale next to Carlos Beltran (.333 & .683), Ruth, Gehrig, and (I'm sure) many others I'm forgetting. Jeter has very impressive totals - all-time leader in PAs, hits, doubles, triples, 3rd in homers, etc - but those are all the result of his having played a full season's worth of games in the postseason, not because he was particularly great in the postseason. In fact, in all the numbers that measure a player's RATE at doing something (average, OBP, slugging, etc), Jeter isn't in the top 10 in anything.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/po..._batting.shtml

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Tabe

That's a bit of a stretch, I think. He's a career .308 hitter with a .465 slugging % in the playoffs. Those are fine numbers, to be sure. But they pale next to Carlos Beltran (.333 & .683), Ruth, Gehrig, and (I'm sure) many others I'm forgetting. Jeter has very impressive totals - all-time leader in PAs, hits, doubles, triples, 3rd in homers, etc - but those are all the result of his having played a full season's worth of games in the postseason, not because he was particularly great in the postseason. In fact, in all the numbers that measure a player's RATE at doing something (average, OBP, slugging, etc), Jeter isn't in the top 10 in anything.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/po..._batting.shtml

I would definitely include Jeter as one of the all time greats in post season history. Unfortunately, he won't rank in the top 10 in any postseason metric because there are so many players with smaller sample sizes than Jeter has had.

An example! Do you know who leads all players in post season OPS? The great Willie Aikens does! He has played in 12 post season games, but man did he shine

Derek Jeter has played virtually one full season (158 games) and has put together numbers that are better than his 162 game averages! That's pretty damn impressive!


Hits
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 205
Playoff 158 Game Total: 200

Runs
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 115
Playoff 158 Game Total: 111

Doubles
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 32
Playoff 158 Game Total: 32

Home Runs
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 15
Playoff 158 Game Total: 20

RBI
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 77
Playoff 158 Game Total: 61

Stolen Bases
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 21
Playoff 158 Game Total: 18

Walks
Regular Season 162 Game Average: 64
Playoff 158 Game Total: 66

Batting Average
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .311
Playoff 158 Game Total: .308

On Base Percentage
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .379
Playoff 158 Game Total: .374

Slugging Percentage
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .442
Playoff 158 Game Total: .465

OPS
Regular Season 162 Game Average: .821
Playoff 158 Game Total: .838

The fact that Jeter was able to play at such a constant level (and even slightly higher level) than he normally played during his career with such a huge sample size speaks volumes! When you even consider the stronger pitching matchups in the playoffs and the level of pressure, it's absolutely astonishing!

I'm not saying he was the best postseason player all time, but he is certainly up there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

An interesting exercise would be to take the players with enough plate appearances to be a truly meaningful sample -- I assume such a list would include Ortiz, Ramirez, Chipper, possibly Alomar and Justice, other Yankees like Williams and Posada and maybe O'Neill -- and see how they stack up.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Griffey battled one injury after another in the second half of his career from diving all over the outfield, and over walls to rob home runs. The point is that Jeter shouldn't have struck out as much as he has. He's struck out more than every single member of the 3,000 hit club. That Jeter has struck out more than Griffey is absolutely funny.

You skipped OBP. Jeter's OBP is only 7 points higher than Griffey Jr's.

OBP:
Griffey: .370
Jeter: .379

OBP is a much better metric than batting average. While batting average will always be considered, and important, on base percentage is the best metric. And Jeter, who's got a much higher batting average, has almost the same on base percentage as Griffey. So, Griffey gets on base nearly as often as Jeter.

When it comes to power, though, there is no comparison:

SLG:
Griffey: .538
Jeter: .432

And again, his slugging dropped, as did most of his metrics, because of the injuries he fought through. At age 31, Griffey's SLG was .568.

Jeter is a singles hitter. Griffey, who has 370 more home runs, has nearly the identical number of doubles.

Doubles:
Jeter: 538
Griffey: 524

And one thing we haven't mentioned that puts Griffey way way ahead of Jeter-defense. Griffey Jr is defensively one of the best center fielders of all-time. Jeter is an average, maybe slightly above average defensive shortstop. Griffey, who is overall a better offensive force than Jeter, is a much better defensive contributor.

There is simply no contest. Griffey is the superior player. Again, Jeter is great, but Griffey Jr was a mega star.

Consider their best seasons by WAR. Remember a WAR of 5+ is All Star level. A WAR of 8+ is MVP level (these are per Baseball Reference)

Jeter's best WARs:
1999 8.0
1998 7.5
2009 6.5
2006 5.5
2001 5.2

Griffey Jr's best WARs:
1996 9.7
1997 9.1
1993 8.7
1991 7.1
1994 6.9
1998 6.6
1992 5.8
2000 5.5
1990 5.2


Jeter had 5 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Jeter had one season (1999) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

Griffey Jr had 9 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Griffey Jr had three seasons (1996, 1997 and 1993) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

So, to summarize:
Derek Jeter is an outstanding hitter with excellent speed. He won the 1996 American League Rookie of the Year. He is a lifetime .311 hitter. He has hit 259 home runs, and stolen 356 bases. His 3,432 hits is sixth all-time, and his 1,914 runs scored is 10th all-time. He is a 14 time All Star. He has won 5 Silver Slugger Awards and 5 Gold Gloves. He has never won an MVP, but has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 3 times. He has led the American League in runs scored once, and in hits twice in his 20 year career. Derek Jeter has struck out more times than any other member of the 3,000 hit club. He has had 5 seasons with a WAR figure of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He has had one WAR figure of 8.0 or higher (which is considered MVP level).

Ken Griffey Jr was a complete player with great power, speed and defensive ability. Griffey is a lifetime .284 hitter with 630 home runs and 1,836 RBI. His 630 home runs is sixth best all-time, and he is thirteenth in RBIs. Griffey is a 13 time All Star. He has won 7 Silver Slugger Awards and 10 Gold Gloves. He has led the American League in runs scored once, RBI once, Slugging once, and total bases twice. He has also won 4 home run titles. Ken Griffey Jr's 382 home runs were the most by an American Leaguer in the 1990s. Only Mark McGwire hit more in the decade (405). McGwire played in both leagues. Ken Griffey Jr was the 1997 American League MVP. He has finished in the top 5 in voting four other times. Griffey Jr has finished with a WAR figure of 8.0 or higher 3 times (which is considered MVP level). He has had six other seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He also had a 4.9 WAR rating in 1999. Ken Griffey is a member of the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.


Jeter is a great player. But Griffey across the boards is just better. He has more Silver Slugger Awards, twice as many Gold Glove Awards (and Jeter's are questioned by many). Jeter has been selected to the All Star Game one more time. Griffey Jr has won an MVP while Jeter has not, though Jeter may have been a better choice in 2006 than Justin Morneau. Still, Griffey Jr has had more WAR 8+ (3 to 1) and WAR 5+ (9 to 5).

JAWS (Jaffe WAR Scoring System) has rated these players:
Derek Jeter 12th best shortstop behind Alan Trammell. Top 5: Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr, George Davis, Robin Yount

Ken Griffey Jr 5th best center fielder (behind Mickey Mantle). Top 5: Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey Jr.

7 year peak WAR:
Derek Jeter 42.2
Ken Griffey Jr 53.9

Pretty much any way you slice it, Griffey is simply better.

To be completely honest with you; all of this is very well done, but I have a few points to add.

Derek Jeter's defense is considered well below average from a WAR point of view and he has a career defensive WAR of -9.5. I believe it has to do with his range. I have no idea how defensive WAR is calculated, but from what Bill James has explained, basically Jeter's range blows and when it is compared to other shortstops (who are among the best fielders), it hurts Jeter's WAR.

Since the only stats either of us are throwing out are offensive, let's look at offensive WAR:

Jeter's oWAR: 95.8 (20th all time)
Griffey's oWAR: 83.8 (27th all time)

Jeter's Seven Peak Years:
1999: 9.0
1998: 7.3
2006: 7.1
2001: 6.7
2000: 6.6
2005: 6.5
2007: 6.2
Total: 49.4

Ken Griffey Jr's Seven Peak Years:
1993: 8.1
1997: 7.6
1998: 6.9
1996: 6.6
1991: 6.4
1992: 6.2
1999: 6.2
Total: 48

So if you compare their best years:
(Jeter : Griffey)

9.0 : 8.1
7.3 : 7.6
7.1 : 6.9
6.7 : 6.6
6.6 : 6.4
6.5 : 6.2
6.2 : 6.2

There oRAR (offensive runs above replacement level) show the same story too. Here are there seven year peaks:

Jeter: 520
Griffey: 498

Basically, Jeter's was a (marginally) more productive offensive player, both throughout his career and when you compare their peak years. One hit home runs and one hit a crap ton of singles and stole bases. In the end, their offensive production equaled out to be virtually the same!

Jeter led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 seven times.
Griffey led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 five times.

When you factor in defense, it'll show Griffey to be a better player because he was a better defensive outfielder than Jeter was a defensive shortstop, but everything points to Jeter as the better offensive player.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

but everything points to Jeter as the better offensive player.

Griffey career OPS+: 136
Jeter career OPS+: 116

Jeter highest OPS+: 153 (only season higher than 132)
Griffey highest OPS+: 171 (had 11 full seasons higher than 132)

Griffey was a better offensive player than Jeter. A LOT better.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Griffey career OPS+: 136
Jeter career OPS+: 116

Jeter highest OPS+: 153 (only season higher than 132)
Griffey highest OPS+: 171 (had 11 full seasons higher than 132)

Griffey was a better offensive player than Jeter. A LOT better.

OPS+ is a great stat for comparing a power hitter with a power hitter, or a slap hitter with a slap hitter, but not a slap hitter with a power hitter.

A great example, in 2004 when Ichiro broke the single season hit record and led the entire league with a WAR of 9.1 his OPS+ was only 130 or right about Ken Griffey Jr.'s 13th best season. Would I take Ichiro's 262 hits, 36 stolen bases, .372 batting average and only 63 strikeouts over Ken Griffey Jr.'s 22 home runs, 72 stirkeouts and .286 batting average? You bet I would.

Power hitters naturally have higher slugging percentages and are walked more skewing their OPS higher than a slap hitter. Offensive WAR takes into account OBP, SLG, stolen bases and positional adjustments.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

To be completely honest with you; all of this is very well done, but I have a few points to add.

Derek Jeter's defense is considered well below average from a WAR point of view and he has a career defensive WAR of -9.5. I believe it has to do with his range. I have no idea how defensive WAR is calculated, but from what Bill James has explained, basically Jeter's range blows and when it is compared to other shortstops (who are among the best fielders), it hurts Jeter's WAR.

Since the only stats either of us are throwing out are offensive, let's look at offensive WAR:

Jeter's oWAR: 95.8 (20th all time)
Griffey's oWAR: 83.8 (27th all time)

Jeter's Seven Peak Years:
1999: 9.0
1998: 7.3
2006: 7.1
2001: 6.7
2000: 6.6
2005: 6.5
2007: 6.2
Total: 49.4

Ken Griffey Jr's Seven Peak Years:
1993: 8.1
1997: 7.6
1998: 6.9
1996: 6.6
1991: 6.4
1992: 6.2
1999: 6.2
Total: 48

So if you compare their best years:
(Jeter : Griffey)

9.0 : 8.1
7.3 : 7.6
7.1 : 6.9
6.7 : 6.6
6.6 : 6.4
6.5 : 6.2
6.2 : 6.2

There oRAR (offensive runs above replacement level) show the same story too. Here are there seven year peaks:

Jeter: 520
Griffey: 498

Basically, Jeter's was a (marginally) more productive offensive player, both throughout his career and when you compare their peak years. One hit home runs and one hit a crap ton of singles and stole bases. In the end, their offensive production equaled out to be virtually the same!

Jeter led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 seven times.
Griffey led the league in oWAR twice, and was top 5 five times.

When you factor in defense, it'll show Griffey to be a better player because he was a better defensive outfielder than Jeter was a defensive shortstop, but everything points to Jeter as the better offensive player.

You will never convince me that a guy that hits a bunch of singles is better than one of the best home run hitters in baseball history. Why? Again, and I have to keep mentioning this. Griffey Jr was hurt for almost the entire second half of his career. That is why the numbers are close. I give Jeter credit for staying healthy, especially playing shortstop, but at his best, Ken Griffey Jr blows Jeter out of the water.

OPS is the be all, end all of offensive metrics, if you ask me. The game of baseball is about scoring runs. To score runs, and win, people need to get on base, and there needs to be power to score runs. OPS is power + on base percentage. OPS + is a combination of those two things adjusted for the parks the player played in.

The very highest OPS + Jeter has ever had was a 153 in 1999. He was tremendous. He hit .349 with 24 home run (career high), 219 hits, 37 doubles, 9 triples, 19 stolen bases. He scored 134 runs, and for the only time in his career, eclipsed 100 RBI (102).

Ken Griffey's best OPS + was in 1993, 171. He matched that again in 1994. If you look at his highest OPS + seasons, he has 5 seasons above 153. Jeter's second best OPS + is 132 in 2006, the season everybody seems all hot and bothered about him getting cheated out of the MVP. Ken Griffey Jr had 12 seasons that were better than Derek Jeter's second best season.

You looked at 162 game averages. Well, on a 162 game basis, Jeter's average OPS + is 116. Griffey Jr's is 136.

I ran a report on Baseball Reference for career OPS +. The only parameter I included was careers with over 7,500 at bats. 182 batters between the years 1901-2014 had 7,500 at bats. Ken Griffey Jr's 136 OPS + was 34th highest of all-time. That is his composite, the healthy years and the years with injuries all rolled into one. Derek Jeter's 116 OPS + is 100th on this list. And that seems about right for Jeter. Barry Larkin, who was a comparable player, has the same 116 OPS +. Robin Yount is at 115. Ken Griffey Jr is sandwiched between George Brett, Reggie Jackson, Gary Sheffield, Vlad Guerrero, Al Kaline and Fred McGriff. Steve Garvey, Lou Whitaker, Adrian Beltre, Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg surround Jeter.

Just for giggles, I reran the test again, lowering the at bats requirement to 5,000, and had the list run for the first ten seasons of a player's career. In other words, when Griffey was actually healthy. Of course, Jeter was also in his first ten seasons. Ten years in, Jeter was a .315 hitter with an .848 OPS, and a 120 OPS +. So, his numbers are a little higher, but not remarkably so.

But look at Griffey Jr. When he is healthy, there is no comparison between him and Jeter. None. On a list of 173 hitters who had at least 5,000 at bats in their first ten seasons, Jeter is 68th. Certainly an improvement. But Griffey Jr jumps all the way up to 13th. The only hitters who had a higher OPS + in the first ten years of their career: Ted Williams, Albert Pujols, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Johnny Mize, Jeff Bagwell, Henry Aaron, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Ed Matthews and Miguel Cabrera. Griffey is ahead of Frank Robinson, Ralph Kiner, Chuck Klein, and Al Simmons.

Before the injuries set in and slowed Griffey down, there was absolutely no comparison offensively between Ken Griffey Jr and Derek Jeter. Griffey Jr's 150 OPS + is superstar level.

To put this another way...Derek Jeter's best ever single season OPS + is 153, again in 1999. For the first ten seasons of his career, Griffey's OPS + was 150. For a decade, Griffey Jr's play was at the same level of Jeter's best ever season.

One last thing. 356 stolen bases in 20 years, and 2,707 games hardly qualifies as a crap ton. When you are 170th on the all-time stolen base list, you haven't stolen a crap ton of bases.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

You will never convince me that a guy that hits a bunch of singles is better than one of the best home run hitters in baseball history. Why? Again, and I have to keep mentioning this. Griffey Jr was hurt for almost the entire second half of his career. That is why the numbers are close. I give Jeter credit for staying healthy, especially playing shortstop, but at his best, Ken Griffey Jr blows Jeter out of the water.

OPS is the be all, end all of offensive metrics, if you ask me. The game of baseball is about scoring runs. To score runs, and win, people need to get on base, and there needs to be power to score runs. OPS is power + on base percentage. OPS + is a combination of those two things adjusted for the parks the player played in.

The very highest OPS + Jeter has ever had was a 153 in 1999. He was tremendous. He hit .349 with 24 home run (career high), 219 hits, 37 doubles, 9 triples, 19 stolen bases. He scored 134 runs, and for the only time in his career, eclipsed 100 RBI (102).

Ken Griffey's best OPS + was in 1993, 171. He matched that again in 1994. If you look at his highest OPS + seasons, he has 5 seasons above 153. Jeter's second best OPS + is 132 in 2006, the season everybody seems all hot and bothered about him getting cheated out of the MVP. Ken Griffey Jr had 12 seasons that were better than Derek Jeter's second best season.

Now, here's something interesting, and it shows why the numbers are closer than one would think. Look at both players for their lowest OPS + seasons. Jeter had 4 seasons below 100.

You looked at 162 game averages. Well, on a 162 game basis, Jeter's average OPS + is 116. Griffey Jr's is 136.

I ran a report on Baseball Reference for career OPS +. The only parameter I included was careers with over 7,500 at bats. 182 batters between the years 1901-2014 had 7,500 at bats. Ken Griffey Jr's 136 OPS + was 34th highest of all-time. That is his composite, the healthy years and the years with injuries all rolled into one. Derek Jeter's 116 OPS + is 100th on this list. And that seems about right for Jeter. Barry Larkin, who was a comparable player, has the same 116 OPS +. Robin Yount is at 115. Ken Griffey Jr is sandwiched between George Brett, Reggie Jackson, Gary Sheffield, Vlad Guerrero, Al Kaline and Fred McGriff. Steve Garvey, Lou Whitaker, Adrian Beltre, Gary Carter and Ryne Sandberg surround Jeter.

Just for giggles, I reran the test again, lowering the at bats requirement to 5,000, and had the list ran for the first ten seasons of a player's career. n other words, when Griffey was actually healthy. Of course, Jeter was also in his first ten seasons. Ten years in, Jeter was a .315 hitter with an .848 OPS, and a 120 OPS +. So, his numbers are a little higher, but not remarkably so.

But look at Griffey Jr. When he is healthy, there is no comparison between him and Jeter. None. On a list of 173 hitters who had at least 5,000 at bats in their first ten seasons, Jeter is 68th. Certainly an improvement. But Griffey Jr jumps all the way up to 13th. The only hitters who had a higher OPS + in the first ten years of their career: Ted Williams, Albert Pujols, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Johnny Mize, Jeff Bagwell, Henry Aaron, Barry Bonds, Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio, Ed Matthews and Miguel Cabrera. Griffey is ahead of Frank Robinson, Ralph Kiner, Chuck Klein, and Al Simmons.

Before the injuries set in and slowed Griffey down, there was absolutely no comparison offensively between Ken Griffey Jr and Derek Jeter. Griffey Jr's 150 OPS + is superstar level.

To put this another way...Derek Jeter's best ever single season OPS + is 153, again in 1999. For the first ten seasons of his career, Griffey's OPS + was 150. For a decade, Griffey Jr's play was at the same level of Jeter's best ever season.

One last thing. 356 stolen bases in 20 years, and 2,707 games hardly qualifies as a crap ton. When you are 170th on the all-time stolen base list, you haven't stolen a crap ton of bases.

I explained above why OPS+ is not an appropriate metric when comparing a slap hitter with a power hitter. Power hitters usually have higher slugging percentages and will generally have higher on base percentages, so their OPS+ will always be higher. If you want to compare Griffey with Bonds, use OPS+. If you want to compare Jeter with Rose, use OPS+. But if you want to compare Griffey with Jeter, OPS+ isn't appropriate.

Proof: If Player A hits 200 singles and then steals second, third and home every time he would probably be considered the greatest player in baseball history, but his OPS+ would be worse than Dan Uggla hitting 30 home runs and batting .230.

You're right, if Griffey was healthy he would have had one of the best careers in the history of the sport! But he didn't remain healthy If Jeter wasn't injured in 2013 and didn't have the burden of playing an extra 158 post season games, maybe he would have had another couple 200 hit seasons. But he won't

Offensive WAR takes into account everything OPS+ takes into account PLUS stolen bases and the position you play. Jeter's best years were marginally better than Griffey's best. Jeter's career numbers were marginally better than Griffey's. They are near identical! I'm not even saying Jeter was the better player (I ranked Jeter lower than Griffey previously in thread!) I'm just saying they are damn near close.

More proof OPS+ is useless!

In 2001 Ichiro won the MVP, ROY and took the country by storm, posting one of the best seasons we have ever seen! He had 242 Hits, 56 Stolen Bases, ONLY 53 Strikeouts, 127 Runs Scored and a .350 Batting Average! Ichiro's OPS+ was 126

In 2008 Dan Uggla had a year that Dan Uggla always has. He had 138 hits, 5 stolen bases, 32 home runs, 171 STRIKEOUTS (HOLY $HIT!) and a .260 batting average Dan Uggla's OPS+ was 126

If you think those two seasons should be compared in any way then this discussion is pointless.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I explained above why OPS+ is not an appropriate metric when comparing a slap hitter with a power hitter. Power hitters usually have higher slugging percentages and will generally have higher on base percentages, so their OPS+ will always be higher.

Lemme let you in on a dirty little secret. Come up close, don't wanna say it too loud:

Power hitters are a LOT more valuable than slap hitters

The job of slap hitters is to get on base. OBP measures that yet you discount it for sluggers because they "walk more often". So what? Isn't that kind of the job? Get on base? And home runs are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more valuable than singles. That's just a fact.

OPS+ is absolutely a fair comparison between guys, regardless of whether they are slap hitters or power hitters.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

More proof OPS+ is useless!

In 2001 Ichiro won the MVP, ROY and took the country by storm, posting one of the best seasons we have ever seen! He had 242 Hits, 56 Stolen Bases, ONLY 53 Strikeouts, 127 Runs Scored and a .350 Batting Average! Ichiro's OPS+ was 126

In 2008 Dan Uggla had a year that Dan Uggla always has. He had 138 hits, 5 stolen bases, 32 home runs, 171 STRIKEOUTS (HOLY $HIT!) and a .260 batting average Dan Uggla's OPS+ was 126

If you think those two seasons should be compared in any way then this discussion is pointless.

First of all, why was Ichiro's season "one of the best seasons we have ever seen"?

The only two statistics that were exceptional were his 242 hits, and his 56 stolen bases. 127 runs scored is a nice total, but it's nowhere near the best all-time. In fact, since just 2000, there have been 27 seasons where a player scored 127 or more runs scored.

He had 242 hits. That's a really great figure. But he had a whopping 738 plate appearances. Only 24 players in the last 113 seasons have had more plate appearances in a season. So while he was very good, hitting .350, his hits total wasn't anything Earth shattering, either. It was part the product of a great season, and an even bigger part an incredible number of plate appearances.

So while the number of hits he had was certainly great, again, it's nothing mind blowing. And his 56 stolen bases? He had 70 stolen base attempts. That's a fine total, and it's certainly something we don't see as often as we used to. But again, 56 stolen bases is nowhere near the best individual total ever. In 114 games this season, Dee Gordon has 54 stolen bases. And he's only had 503 plate appearances.

So you'll excuse me if I question your claim that Ichiro had one of the greatest seasons in baseball history. No, he really didn't. For the first 50 games the game was played, there were players that were hitting for averages much higher than .350, scoring much more than 127 runs, and stealing more than 56 bases.

The rest of his numbers are actually quite pedestrian. He only walked 30 times. So while he had a lot of hits, he got on base a total of 280 times, which was good for the 11th best total in 2001. Barry Bonds in 2001 got on base 342 times. He had 156 hits, 177 walks, he was hit by 9 pitches. Jason Giambi got on base 320 times. Luis Gonzalez got on base 312 times. Sammy Sosa got on 311 times, and Todd Helton 300. Lance Berkman, Alex Rodriguez, Chipper Jones, Jeff Bagwell and Carlos Delgado all got on base more times than Ichiro, too. And even terrible old Dan Uggla got on base 223 times. He only had 138 hits, but he also had 77 walks, and got hit by 8 pitches.

So, what about the rest of Ichiro's offensive production? 34 doubles, 8 triples, 8 home runs. 69 RBI.He slashed .381/.457/.838.

Dan Uggla scored 97 runs, he had 37 doubles, a triple and 32 home runs. As far as how many times he struck out, 171, so what? An out is an out is an out. One of Ichiro's outs counts the same as one of Uggla's outs. Ichiro made 458 outs in 2001. Uggla only made 396 outs.

So, while Ichiro was having "one of the greatest seasons in MLB history!", he only scored 30 more runs than Uggla. And he drove in 23 fewer runs. That is reflected in runs created:

Runs created (source Baseball America, under more stats)
Ichiro 2001 127
Uggla 2008 100

Runs created per game

Ichiro 7.2
Uggla 6.5

Ichiro, for having one of the greatest seasons ever, wasn't that much more productive than Uggla. Look at the runs created per game. When you consider that Ichiro had 119 more plate appearances than Uggla did, they'd be even closer if with the same number of opportunities.

And one more thing. Dan Uggla is a second baseman. You took a player from what is typically the least productive offensive position in baseball for your comparison.

In summary, not only is Ichiro's 2001 season not one of the greatest of all time, your comparison of Ichiro and Uggla did nothing to show that OPS is a meaningless stat. It is not all encompassing, as it does not take into consideration stolen bases, and there are metrics that do. But OPS is an outstanding metric to determine a player's contributions with the bat. The reason Dan Uggla's OPS 2008 OPS is higher than Ichiro's 2001 OPS is because Uggla thrived in both getting on base, and generating power. Both are vital to team success. Ichiro got on base slightly more often, but his power numbers compared to Uggla's were nowhere close.

You see to get stuck on batting averages, Jason. Batting average is still a good metric. It shows how well a hitter is able to get on base with his bat. But if a player's job is to get on base ahead of the power hitters, which pretty much matches Ichiro's job description, he's only marginally better at that then Uggla. Ichiro hit .350 in 2001, and Uggla hit only .260 in 2008. But Ichiro's OBP of .381 is not a lot better than Uggla's .360. Why? Because Uggla walks a lot. When he's not hitting home runs, he provides value to his team by getting on base. Ichiro's OBP was only 31 points higher than his batting average because he only walked 30 times in 738 trips to the plate. That's actually pretty bad for a leadoff hitter. It wasn't enough to keep him out of the lineup because he was obviously a great hitter at that time. But again, Uggla in 2008 had a higher OPS than Ichiro did in 2001 because he provided more value to his team. Instead of this example your provided showing why OPS is meaningless, it has had the opposite effect. It has done a great job of showing exactly why it is such an accurate metric. You looked at things like batting average and strikeouts while completely ignoring walks. Uggla in 2008 got on base nearly as much as Ichiro, and he provided much more power. So, upon further review, Ichiro's season wasn't as spectacular as you made it out to be, and Uggla's 2008 season wasn't as bad as it was made out to be.

Ichiro's WAR was only 7.7. That's a very good figure, but hardly indicative of a monumental season.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Griffey battled one injury after another in the second half of his career from diving all over the outfield, and over walls to rob home runs. The point is that Jeter shouldn't have struck out as much as he has. He's struck out more than every single member of the 3,000 hit club. That Jeter has struck out more than Griffey is absolutely funny.

You skipped OBP. Jeter's OBP is only 7 points higher than Griffey Jr's.

OBP:
Griffey: .370
Jeter: .379

OBP is a much better metric than batting average. While batting average will always be considered, and important, on base percentage is the best metric. And Jeter, who's got a much higher batting average, has almost the same on base percentage as Griffey. So, Griffey gets on base nearly as often as Jeter.

When it comes to power, though, there is no comparison:

SLG:
Griffey: .538
Jeter: .432

And again, his slugging dropped, as did most of his metrics, because of the injuries he fought through. At age 31, Griffey's SLG was .568.

Jeter is a singles hitter. Griffey, who has 370 more home runs, has nearly the identical number of doubles.

Doubles:
Jeter: 538
Griffey: 524

And one thing we haven't mentioned that puts Griffey way way ahead of Jeter-defense. Griffey Jr is defensively one of the best center fielders of all-time. Jeter is an average, maybe slightly above average defensive shortstop. Griffey, who is overall a better offensive force than Jeter, is a much better defensive contributor.

There is simply no contest. Griffey is the superior player. Again, Jeter is great, but Griffey Jr was a mega star.

Consider their best seasons by WAR. Remember a WAR of 5+ is All Star level. A WAR of 8+ is MVP level (these are per Baseball Reference)

Jeter's best WARs:
1999 8.0
1998 7.5
2009 6.5
2006 5.5
2001 5.2

Griffey Jr's best WARs:
1996 9.7
1997 9.1
1993 8.7
1991 7.1
1994 6.9
1998 6.6
1992 5.8
2000 5.5
1990 5.2

Jeter had 5 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Jeter had one season (1999) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

Griffey Jr had 9 seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher. Griffey Jr had three seasons (1996, 1997 and 1993) that, per WAR, would be at an MVP level.

So, to summarize:
Derek Jeter is an outstanding hitter with excellent speed. He won the 1996 American League Rookie of the Year. He is a lifetime .311 hitter. He has hit 259 home runs, and stolen 356 bases. His 3,432 hits is sixth all-time, and his 1,914 runs scored is 10th all-time. He is a 14 time All Star. He has won 5 Silver Slugger Awards and 5 Gold Gloves. He has never won an MVP, but has finished in the top 5 in MVP voting 3 times. He has led the American League in runs scored once, and in hits twice in his 20 year career. Derek Jeter has struck out more times than any other member of the 3,000 hit club. He has had 5 seasons with a WAR figure of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He has had one WAR figure of 8.0 or higher (which is considered MVP level).

Ken Griffey Jr was a complete player with great power, speed and defensive ability. Griffey is a lifetime .284 hitter with 630 home runs and 1,836 RBI. His 630 home runs is sixth best all-time, and he is thirteenth in RBIs. Griffey is a 13 time All Star. He has won 7 Silver Slugger Awards and 10 Gold Gloves. He has led the American League in runs scored once, RBI once, Slugging once, and total bases twice. He has also won 4 home run titles. Ken Griffey Jr's 382 home runs were the most by an American Leaguer in the 1990s. Only Mark McGwire hit more in the decade (405). McGwire played in both leagues. Ken Griffey Jr was the 1997 American League MVP. He has finished in the top 5 in voting four other times. Griffey Jr has finished with a WAR figure of 8.0 or higher 3 times (which is considered MVP level). He has had six other seasons with a WAR of 5.0 or higher (which is considered All Star level). He also had a 4.9 WAR rating in 1999. Ken Griffey is a member of the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.


Jeter is a great player. But Griffey across the boards is just better. He has more Silver Slugger Awards, twice as many Gold Glove Awards (and Jeter's are questioned by many). Jeter has been selected to the All Star Game one more time. Griffey Jr has won an MVP while Jeter has not, though Jeter may have been a better choice in 2006 than Justin Morneau. Still, Griffey Jr has had more WAR 8+ (3 to 1) and WAR 5+ (9 to 5).

JAWS (Jaffe WAR Scoring System) has rated these players:
Derek Jeter 12th best shortstop behind Alan Trammell. Top 5: Honus Wagner, Alex Rodriguez, Cal Ripken Jr, George Davis, Robin Yount

Ken Griffey Jr 5th best center fielder (behind Mickey Mantle). Top 5: Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Ken Griffey Jr.

7 year peak WAR:
Derek Jeter 42.2
Ken Griffey Jr 53.9

Pretty much any way you slice it, Griffey is simply better.

Isn't it amazing how long it took for George Davis to be recognized.

[howard38]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Isn't it amazing how long it took for George Davis to be recognized.

Since the first page anyway. But I agree it's pretty surprising that George Davis isn't getting more love from a forum of pre-war fans.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by howard38

Since the first page anyway. But I agree it's pretty surprising that George Davis isn't getting more love from a forum of pre-war fans.

I readily admit that I don't know a lot about George Davis, but I'm certainly going to learn about him.

[darwinbulldog]

I rank Davis as the 11th best T206 player, including all the pitchers. He's terribly underrated, but so is Arky Vaughn -- well, except with us and Kurkjian. Wagner is 1. Vaughn is 2. Davis is a few spots down but still ahead of Jeter.