Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[ksabet]

I was listening to ESPN a couple of days ago and Tim Kurkjian was speaking on where Derek Jeter placed in the discussion of greatest SS's. His list was:

Wagner
Vaughan
Jeter
Ripken
Smith

I think he had Larkin in the discussion as well. Said Jeter would be considered as high as 2 and no lower than 6.

Just curious what others thoughts were on this position in history?

[oldjudge]

I think he is three, behind Wagner and Ripken. Ozzie Smith shouldn't be on the list (no matter how long the list is).

[Econteachert205]

Some old timers swear by Marty Marion as a top 5

[yanksfan09]

I'm a Yanks fan but I'd rate him 2nd. Maybe Ripken's time at 3b might hurt him a bit and lower average. Obviously he had more pop and the streak. I'd give Jeter the edge over Ripken by a little.

[howard38]

Kurkjian is either discounting A-Rod because of his time at 3B or because of the PEDs but he played more than half his career games at SS so I would put him at #2 behind Wagner w/Ripken third. After that it's apples and oranges w/several players including Jeter that could be considered for the fourth spot. Vaughan, Larkin, Appling Boudreau, Yount, Dahlen, Ozzie, George Davis and probably a few others are pretty close in value. Personally I would put Davis and Vaughan in a tie for fourth and fifth.

[ErikV]

Funny, I was talking to brother about this same topic a couple of days ago.
We never did come up with a consensus. I suppose it could be argued that any
name on the list you/Kurkjian provided could be considered the best SS ever.

I personally think while Ripken's consecutive game streak is impressive, his
.276 career batting average and 36 career stolen bases quickly disqualifies
him as being the best SS. The same holds true of Ozzie Smith's career 28
home runs and .262 batting average.

It's a bit unfair to try and compare players whom I've never seen play (ie
Wagner, Waner), so if I had to choose, I'd go with Jeter. For the last 20
seasons Derek Jeter had been the glue to hold the Yankees together. I don't
think we'll see the likes of another Jeter type for many years to come.

Just my humble opinion,

ErikV

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Best shortstop of all time, 7 time all star, 2 time NL MVP... Ernie Banks.

[Bugsy]

Ernie Banks needs to be on the list. Yes, he played the second half of his career at 1st, but two MVP seasons as a shortstop...

Yount should maybe enter the conversation as well.

And Jeter should have changed positions at least a few seasons ago. He still has great hands and a good arm, but his range is horrible. He shouldn't get more consideration as a shortstop just because his ego wouldn't allow him to change positions versus a guy like Cal that took one for the team and made the switch late in his career.

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. ???

[brewing]

I agree that ARod should be in discussion.

I also do not think Ripken is in the top 5.

Considering SS is one of the most important defensive positions, I think should hold immense weight when discussing greatest SS's.

Jeter is a slight notch above Smith, Trammell and then Larkin. If numbers don't lie, then look them up. The defensive ones too.

[clydepepper]

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

[AMBST95]

If Ripken had played his career in New York over the same time period as Jeter this wouldn't even be a debate. Cal played on a lot of bad teams in Baltimore while Jeter played on better teams. Jeter is a great player but he ranks easily behind Ripken. Cal's defensive WAR is #4 in the history of the game at 38.8. Jeter's is (-9.6). Jeter has 3400+hits while Cal ONLY had 3100, but with a lot more power.

I don't mean to discredit Jeter, he's a great player. He'll be a first ballot HOFer. He's my generation's New York legend. I'd just pick Ripken if I had to choose between the 2 when building my ball club. But it's really just a discussion over #2 because no one is supplanting Honus anytime soon. ARod could have made my top 5 if he'd had kept his nose clean, but his numbers are meaningless in my eyes at this point.

1) Wagner
2) Ripken
3) Jeter
4) Yount
5) Vaughn

[ksabet]

It's funny because we romanticize old legendary players it's sometimes hard to figure out where they truly stand in history.

Wagner is almost unanimously considered the greatest shortstop and against his contemporaries (which IMO is how it SHOULD be judged) there is no doubt. But was he really better than Ripken or Jeter if you put him on today's field?

It's something we will never know but I i have always been curious how Ruth or Foxx or Mathewson would have fared against modern players.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ksabet

It's funny because we romanticize old legendary players it's sometimes hard to figure out where they truly stand in history.

Wagner is almost unanimously considered the greatest shortstop and against his contemporaries (which IMO is how it SHOULD be judged) there is no doubt. But was he really better than Ripken or Jeter if you put him on today's field?

It's something we will never know but I i have always been curious how Ruth or Foxx or Mathewson would have fared against modern players.

This is why comparing greats across generations is so very difficult. To be accurate, you can only rank them within their own time. Babe Ruth would have had to be in better shape to be productive, Walter Johnson may have only been 'moderately fast' by today's standards. On the other hand, what if the old-timers had had all of the training and nutritional advantages that today's stars have....you could go back and forth forever about this...and I believe we will...part of the allure of the history of the game. '...a haunted game in which every players is compared to the ghosts of all those who came before.'

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

This is why comparing greats across generations is so very difficult. To be accurate, you can only rank them within their own time. Babe Ruth would have had to be in better shape to be productive, Walter Johnson may have only been 'moderately fast' by today's standards. On the other hand, what if the old-timers had had all of the training and nutritional advantages that today's stars have....you could go back and forth forever about this...and I believe we will...part of the allure of the history of the game. '...a haunted game in which every players is compared to the ghosts of all those who came before.'

That's why I hate when people bring up the past players talking about how they would do now, but not vice versa. Do you think any of these pampered stars would last a season riding trains, working an off-season job, playing with a scuffed up ball that gets thrown at their helmetless head if they crowd the plate, and using chewing tobacco spit as a form of healing a spike wound? 90% of them wouldn't last half a season playing in those old wool unis, always day games and exhibition games scheduled for off-days. Most of them would be a crying mess after the first week, calling their moms like a fat kid at summer camp. And people now think these guys are the better players, ha!

There isn't a shortstop that's played this game that should be mentioned in the same breath as Honus Wagner and I'm a Pirates fan that thinks Arky Vaughan was the second best shortstop of all-time. He's no Wagner though, not close.

[ksabet]

I do not think guys who played half their careers at other positions should be counted in the discussion.

I also Feel as though it is very tough to compare but the discussion is what makes baseball fun.

I remember as a kid we would challenge and test each other on who was the best at different positions and just seeing if we could name the greats in history. Great memories!

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

[SmokyBurgess]

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

[mrvster]

Totally agree....

Wagner, Ripken, Jeter

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

[bbcard1]

I would agree Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer, but I am not sure I would take him in the top five shortstops, if so he would probably be #5. We are in this weird era where we unreasonably amplify a person's achievements at the time of their death or at their retirement. I remember someone saying that Tony Gwynn was not only one of the best baseball players ever, but the best people ever. That's a really big claim. When Gerald Ford died I remember someone comparing him to Lincoln. There's not really a great harm in it, but it doesn't mean it's accurate. Jeter was consistently excellent for a very long time, but I am not sure there was a moment when he was considered the most dominant player in the game, a claim two of his contemporaries at the same position could argue (Rodriguez and possibly Garciaparra).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's weird how Jeter's WAR stats are really mediocre (12th among SSs) but in some other categories he is really high (11th among ALL players in hof monitor). Bottom line, one of those players I think that just defies statistics. ARod blows him away statistically, but who would you want?

[Tabe]

Arod is #2, at the VERY least. 40/40, batting title, three 40 homer seasons, and Gold Glove-level defense - all before leaving Seattle. Whatever came later, at their very best, Ripken, Jeter, et al, simply couldn't touch the player Arod was in Seattle.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

Definition of a bad day.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

[ctownboy]

Have Jeter put up the same stats while playing short stop for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the last 20 years and see how many people drool over him as compared to him being on the Yankees......

If Dave Concepcion or Alan Trammell had put up their stats while playing for the Yankees, both would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

David

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Have Jeter put up the same stats while playing short stop for the Pittsburgh Pirates for the last 20 years and see how many people drool over him as compared to him being on the Yankees......

If Dave Concepcion or Alan Trammell had put up their stats while playing for the Yankees, both would be in the Hall of Fame right now.

David

I have always agreed that there is a Yankee bias in baseball as well as a Giants, Bears and Steelers bias in football. But I still believe (and I am not a Yankee fan) that Jeter would be in the discussion for best ever no matter where he played, but of course that's pure speculation

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Cubs1969

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

Alex had six. Consecutive.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am a 25 year SABR guy but WAR and some of the other new stats are just garbage for math guys to feel like they are part of the game.

Wagner is in a class by himself while defensively Ozzie is so far ahead of everyone else it is not funny.

Then come the offensive guys!

[Exhibitman]

A-Roid is a cheater. There is no need to consider anything else. His record is tainted.

A plug here for Arky Vaughan. Truly a victim of his teams in terms of publicity and recognition today. I'd take him and Mazeroski as a DP combo any day.

I don't know that the true half-career players should be considered in the same breath as a career SS.

Omar V. Another amazing player who is not given his due. I'll take him and Mazeroski too.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved.

Enough about Arod. On the juice since day 1.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved..

I can certainly figure out how a SS can save a run. What in saying is they don't do it 100 times a year. I'd venture it's more like 10-15. Tops. It simply doesn't come up that often.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

I think you would have to rank the players by performance in their primes. For me it would be

(1) Alex Rodriguez
(2) Honus Wagner
(3) Derek Jeter

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Alex had six. Consecutive.

Alex Rodriguez also put those numbers up in an era when there were video game offensive numbers. I'm not saying that Rodriguez wasn't a great player, but his numbers are inflated playing in the era he did.

To me, Ernie Banks hitting 40 home runs a season as a shortstop is far more impressive than Alex Rodriguez doing it. And again, keeping the era in mind, what Robin Yount did in 1982 is more impressive than any season Rodriguez ever had as as a shortstop.

[the 'stache]

And another awful ESPN Baseball talking head is heard from. Jeter even being considered the second best shortstop in baseball history is a complete joke.

How is Robin Yount not on his list? He was a shortstop for ten years, the last half of which he was the best in the game.

Jeter has played shortstop for twenty seasons. His highest WAR ratings:

1999: 8.0
1998: 7.5
2009: 6.5
2006: 5.5
2001: 5.2

Yount's highest WAR ratings while a shortstop:

1982: 10.5
1983: 7.3
1980: 7.1
1984: 5.9
1978: 5.0
1981: 4.9 * (projects to between a 7.2 and a 7.5 without the strike)

1981 was the strike-shortened season. There were only 109 games played, of which Yount played in 96. 53 games were lost that season, which is almost exactly 1/3 of a whole season. Yount's 4.9 WAR was achieved in 96 games. Give him another 45 games or more, and he's anywhere between a 7.2 and a 7.5.

In his twenty seasons at shortstop, Jeter managed two seasons with a 7 + WAR. Yount managed three playing half as many seasons at short, and clearly would have had a fourth in 1981 if not for the strike that season. And, that's with him playing his first season, 1974, as an 18 year old. Jeter was 21 his first full season.

Yount defensively blows Jeter out of the water. How Jeter managed to get 5 Gold Glove Awards is a mystery on par with Jimmy Hoffa's disappearance.

Jeter's dWAR in 20 seasons as a shortstop is a -9.5.
Yount's dWAR in 10 seasons as a shortstop is a 12.5.

Yet Jeter has 5 Gold Gloves, and Yount got one.

Sure...right.

[abothebear]

I agree, as much as I admire Jeter, a strong case can be made that he isn't even a top 10 SS.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by abothebear

I agree, as much as I admire Jeter, a strong case can be made that he isn't even a top 10 SS.

Yup.

I looked more at their defensive ratings. I'm still trying to figure out how Jeter, not Yount, has 5 Gold Gloves.

RF/9 (range factor per 9 innings):
Jeter career 4.06
Yount career 5.13

Career double plays:
Jeter 1,400 in 2,636 games (.531/game)
Yount 941 in 1,479 games (.636/game)

Rtz -- Total Zone Fielding Runs Above Avg
The number of runs above or below average the player was worth based on fielding plays made.

Jeter career -152
Yount 18

[glynparson]

Wagner
Banks
Ripken
Jeter
Yount

[JasonD08]

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

[pcoz]

In their prime, Arod & Nomar were always better defensively & offensively with batting titles & MVP's. If Arod didn't move to 3rd, Jeter would've never won a Gold Glove or Silver Slugger award. Jeter has obviously had the longevity/consistency to be in the top 10. But, to Arod's point, Jeter never had to be the guy. He was overrated defensively, never hit for power, but was a solid hitter for average. If he wasn't on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be thought of in the top 10 even though he should be. Wagner for sure is #1, but not sure where I'd put Jeter. He isn't close to the best defensively or offensively, but as a total package, a model of reliability. So, somewhere in the top 10.

[D. Bergin]

Please, please, please...somebody look up Don Mattingly's Defensive WAR stats and then try to tell me it's not the most arbitrary/ridiculous statistic ever conceived. Especially when it pertains to anybody pre-2006 or so.

Now, keep in mind, if you are going to defend it, please tell me how it's accurately calibrated by giving an answer other then "Computers, they does it".

[SteveMitchell]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

[emphasis added]

That Tim Kurkjian included Vaughan so high was, frankly, suprising - pleasingly so. And Raymond's comment is spot-on, in my view. It's amazing to me that Arky was ignored so long by the Baseball Writers (who had years to honor him but did not) but, belatedly, was selected by the much reviled Committee on Veterans.

I like:

1. Wagner
2. Vaughan
3. Banks
4. Ripken
5. Vizquel
6. Smith
7. Yount
8. Jeter
9. Larkin
10. Trammell

[Peter_Spaeth]

Wagner, Banks, Jeter, Ripken, Yount, Vaughan

Could be biased, I love Jeter and always thought Ripken was overrated a bit due to the streak

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

I grew up watching Mark Belanger and I would put him with anyone in a purely fielding discussion.

[JasonD08]

Are you guys serious? Are we talking purely playing the position? If so has to be Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2. I know this is a pre war forum but there is no way Jeter is in the top 10 let alone 5. Ripken not even top 5. I highly doubt Wagner would be either. Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. That is like saying Barry Bonds had a better arm than Ellis Valentine.

[Kenny Cole]

Gee, I thought shortstops had a place in the batting order and didn't just field. Ozzie Smith was a phenomenal fielder. But, without running any metrics, I would be astonished if the runs he saved in the field were equal to or more than the runs produced by the better hitters at shortstop such as Wagner, Vaughn, Ripkin. Yount, Banks, etc. And most of them were decent fielders too. At the least, the disparity between their fielding and that of Ozzie was not nearly so great (albeit I grant that fielding is much more difficult to measure) than the disparity between Ozzie at the plate and any of the other shortstops I've mentioned. Ozzie isn't number one, period, unless you are only looking at half an inning. Not now, not ever. Neither is Omar number two. They were both great, but they weren't the greatest and second best. That is still Wagner and, IMO, Vaughn and then probably Banks.

[the 'stache]

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

[clydepepper]

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

Let's remember what the subject is specifically, not which player who played shortstop (for Yount & Banks) is the best overall player...

just which is the best shortstop.