Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Seeing that Shortstop is considered a premium defensive position, if A-Rod is included in the discussion, then so should Vizquel, Aparicio, and Maranville.

I would hesitate placing Jeter above Ripken

Arky Vaughan may be the one of the best under-the-radar position players ever.

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

[SmokyBurgess]

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

[mrvster]

Totally agree....

Wagner, Ripken, Jeter

[Jay Wolt]

Originally Posted by SmokyBurgess

Never saw them of course, but must have been a pretty good shortstop in the Negro Leagues.

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Pop Lloyd is probably the top man on the list

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I agree, but pretty good arguments could also be made for Willie Wells, Dick Lundy and perhaps Dobie Moore

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dobie Moore:

His career ended abruptly in mid-1926 when he was shot in the leg by a girlfriend and suffered a compound fracture jumping from a second-story balcony to escape from her. He reportedly played semi-pro ball in Detroit into the 1930s as a stiff-legged first baseman.

Definition of a bad day.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

[bbcard1]

I would agree Jeter is a first ballot hall of famer, but I am not sure I would take him in the top five shortstops, if so he would probably be #5. We are in this weird era where we unreasonably amplify a person's achievements at the time of their death or at their retirement. I remember someone saying that Tony Gwynn was not only one of the best baseball players ever, but the best people ever. That's a really big claim. When Gerald Ford died I remember someone comparing him to Lincoln. There's not really a great harm in it, but it doesn't mean it's accurate. Jeter was consistently excellent for a very long time, but I am not sure there was a moment when he was considered the most dominant player in the game, a claim two of his contemporaries at the same position could argue (Rodriguez and possibly Garciaparra).

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's weird how Jeter's WAR stats are really mediocre (12th among SSs) but in some other categories he is really high (11th among ALL players in hof monitor). Bottom line, one of those players I think that just defies statistics. ARod blows him away statistically, but who would you want?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

+1. Ozzie Smith saved 100+ runs per year in his prime. According to Whitey Herzog, not me. Probably also true about Vizquel. Most of this discussion is centered on offensive production. You guys are missing the boat.

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

[Tabe]

Arod is #2, at the VERY least. 40/40, batting title, three 40 homer seasons, and Gold Glove-level defense - all before leaving Seattle. Whatever came later, at their very best, Ripken, Jeter, et al, simply couldn't touch the player Arod was in Seattle.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by Tabe

A run per game saved is just a stupid exaggeration. Nobody cones even close to doing that - the opportunities simply don't come up that often.

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved.

Enough about Arod. On the juice since day 1.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by stlcardsfan

SS robs a basehit up the middle. Next guy up hits a home run (or even a double). One run saved..

I can certainly figure out how a SS can save a run. What in saying is they don't do it 100 times a year. I'd venture it's more like 10-15. Tops. It simply doesn't come up that often.