Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Cubs1969

Ernie Banks had 5 40+ HR seasons as a shortstop.

Alex had six. Consecutive.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I am a 25 year SABR guy but WAR and some of the other new stats are just garbage for math guys to feel like they are part of the game.

Wagner is in a class by himself while defensively Ozzie is so far ahead of everyone else it is not funny.

Then come the offensive guys!

[Exhibitman]

A-Roid is a cheater. There is no need to consider anything else. His record is tainted.

A plug here for Arky Vaughan. Truly a victim of his teams in terms of publicity and recognition today. I'd take him and Mazeroski as a DP combo any day.

I don't know that the true half-career players should be considered in the same breath as a career SS.

Omar V. Another amazing player who is not given his due. I'll take him and Mazeroski too.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Alex had six. Consecutive.

Alex Rodriguez also put those numbers up in an era when there were video game offensive numbers. I'm not saying that Rodriguez wasn't a great player, but his numbers are inflated playing in the era he did.

To me, Ernie Banks hitting 40 home runs a season as a shortstop is far more impressive than Alex Rodriguez doing it. And again, keeping the era in mind, what Robin Yount did in 1982 is more impressive than any season Rodriguez ever had as as a shortstop.

[JasonD08]

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

[pcoz]

In their prime, Arod & Nomar were always better defensively & offensively with batting titles & MVP's. If Arod didn't move to 3rd, Jeter would've never won a Gold Glove or Silver Slugger award. Jeter has obviously had the longevity/consistency to be in the top 10. But, to Arod's point, Jeter never had to be the guy. He was overrated defensively, never hit for power, but was a solid hitter for average. If he wasn't on the Yankees, he wouldn't even be thought of in the top 10 even though he should be. Wagner for sure is #1, but not sure where I'd put Jeter. He isn't close to the best defensively or offensively, but as a total package, a model of reliability. So, somewhere in the top 10.

[D. Bergin]

Please, please, please...somebody look up Don Mattingly's Defensive WAR stats and then try to tell me it's not the most arbitrary/ridiculous statistic ever conceived. Especially when it pertains to anybody pre-2006 or so.

Now, keep in mind, if you are going to defend it, please tell me how it's accurately calibrated by giving an answer other then "Computers, they does it".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by JasonD08

Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2 if you are talking about the position period. The rest isn't even close. If you factor hitting in (this is a discussion about playing a defensive position) then it is obviously different. Jeter is not even in the top 5.

I grew up watching Mark Belanger and I would put him with anyone in a purely fielding discussion.

[JasonD08]

Are you guys serious? Are we talking purely playing the position? If so has to be Ozzie #1 and Vizquel #2. I know this is a pre war forum but there is no way Jeter is in the top 10 let alone 5. Ripken not even top 5. I highly doubt Wagner would be either. Now factor in hitting and its a different picture. That is like saying Barry Bonds had a better arm than Ellis Valentine.

[Kenny Cole]

Gee, I thought shortstops had a place in the batting order and didn't just field. Ozzie Smith was a phenomenal fielder. But, without running any metrics, I would be astonished if the runs he saved in the field were equal to or more than the runs produced by the better hitters at shortstop such as Wagner, Vaughn, Ripkin. Yount, Banks, etc. And most of them were decent fielders too. At the least, the disparity between their fielding and that of Ozzie was not nearly so great (albeit I grant that fielding is much more difficult to measure) than the disparity between Ozzie at the plate and any of the other shortstops I've mentioned. Ozzie isn't number one, period, unless you are only looking at half an inning. Not now, not ever. Neither is Omar number two. They were both great, but they weren't the greatest and second best. That is still Wagner and, IMO, Vaughn and then probably Banks.

[the 'stache]

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

[clydepepper]

Impressive argument and research to back it up, Bill.

However, in my opinion, your statement overvalues stolen bases - which is the easiest way to exclude Ripken.

Let's remember what the subject is specifically, not which player who played shortstop (for Yount & Banks) is the best overall player...

just which is the best shortstop.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I've been watching baseball for a really long time. I've seen a lot of incredible players in my life. But I will go to my grave, God willing many years from now, swearing that Robin Yount was the best baseball player I've ever seen. The kid could do it all. He was a Major League shortstop at 18 years old long before everybody was hyping Bryce Harper up for being a Major Leaguer so young.

He is the only player in Major League history to win an MVP as a shortstop and a center fielder. Only Yount, Stan Musial, Hank Greenberg and Alex Rodriguez have ever won MVPs at two different positions. Greenberg and Musial both won as outfielders and first basemen, Rodriguez won as a shortstop and third baseman.

He is the only player in World Series history to have four hits in a game twice, and he did that in the same series. In the '82 World Series he hit .414 with a 1.087 OPS. And Robin Yount is really the reason the Brewers went to the post season at all in 1982. With the Brewers and Orioles tied atop the American League Eastern Division on the last day of the regular season, Robin Yount single-handedly destroyed the Orioles with his defensive play, and his bat. He had a triple and two home runs in 5 ABs.

Yount's 1,731 hits were the most by any Major League player in the 80s.

When you look at some of his stats, like his home runs, you're not blown away. 251 home runs is good for a Major Leaguer, better for a shortstop. 271 stolen bases is also good. But when you start coming up with lists of stats, and Yount's name is one of only a few names, you see how great he was.

Like the list of Major League players with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 500 doubles and 100 triples in their career:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount. That's it.

Major Leaguers with 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases, 3,000 hits and 500 doubles:
Willie Mays
Robin Yount
Rickie Henderson
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter

How about players with career WAR 75.00 or higher, 2,500 hits, 250 home runs, 250 stolen bases:
Barry Bonds
Alex Rodriguez
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Rickey Henderson
Robin Yount

When you take his career in the aggregate, you really start to see how great Yount was.

Notice that Jeter was on one of these lists? Ripken isn't on any. Nor is Ernie Banks. I'd say Wagner, too, but he played in the dead ball era. But let's exclude home runs.

Players with a career WAR 75.00 or higher, with 2,500 hits, 250 stolen bases and 750 extra base hits:
Barry Bonds
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Alex Rodriguez
Honus Wagner
Rickey Henderson
Joe Morgan
Robin Yount
Paul Molitor

When you're on a list of only ten players in Major League history to have done something, and Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker and Honus Wagner are three of those ten, you've had a great career.

Using 250 steals as an arbitrary cutoff to boost the profile of Yount is kinda weak. Drop the number to 240 and Hank Aaron gets included, for example. Barring that, do we seriously believe that Yount belongs in any discussion that includes Mays, Musial, Aaron, Cobb, etc? C'mon.

And the reason Yount has only one Gold Glove? His name is Alan Trammell.